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[Music]

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in the past the gold standard of

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paranormal radio and now here's gene

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Steinberg my co-host this week is

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Nicholas Redfern later on in the show

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we'll hear from Mark Pilkington he's

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written a new book a hardcover book

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Believe It or Not called Mirage men

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subtitled an adventure into paranoia

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espionage psychological warfare and UFOs

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and we have to check whether it's in

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that order or some other order I'm Jean

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Steinberg this is the power cast Nick

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you've written so many books maybe not

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as many as I have but you've written a

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lot of books how do you go about

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researching a new book do you get

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suggestions from your publishers as to a

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new title or what no it's never really

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through the publisher it's just

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basically you know me doing research and

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then finding something that potentially

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looks like it could be an interesting

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story and then approaching a publisher

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to see if they are interested it's

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usually that simple very very rarely

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that's you know publishers say can you

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do a book on this you know they'll

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certainly invite you to suggest ideas to

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them but it's very rarely in my

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experience at least that it's the other

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way around we've had a thread open over

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at the para cast forums at forum dr.

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Peric ascom and it was started by her

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friend Chris O'Brien he's trying to get

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you in trouble here and it's all about

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this new book you have that we'll be

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talking about in more detail in the next

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couple of weeks called final events how

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did that idea come to you well actually

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once was the idea came to me a number of

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years ago that four years ago I

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interviewed an anglican priest from

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Nebraska Lincoln Nebraska named Reb

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O'Shea ray may not be known to too many

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people in ufology today but he's a

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former state director of MUFON the

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Nebraska and he was particularly heavily

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involved in the 1980s in China uses

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senator to push for any and

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any materials that might exist on the

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Rendlesham forest case to be

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declassified into the public domain and

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so ray you know was at the forefront of

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a lot of good research in the 1980s and

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as an anglican priest he came around to

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the view that the whole UFO phenomenon

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the bulk of what we perceive as the UFO

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phenomenon today if you like was not

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extraterrestrial rather was literally

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demonic I mean literally demonic and in

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1991 Ray was visited almost like like a

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clandestine deep throats type situation

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by two Department of Defense scientists

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who said that they wanted to discuss his

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theories with them because they were

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working on some sort of clandestine DoD

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project that involved contacting what

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they described to Ray as non-human

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entities or nAES as they described them

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with a view to try to understand and

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harness some of their sort of I guess

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what we would call paranormal powers

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remote viewing things like that with a

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view to using them as a weapon and these

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people felt that the further they were

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getting into it it was creating like a

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negative backlash with bad luck and

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deaths and ill health and all sorts of

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things affecting the group and they

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literally went from going from the idea

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that it was actually terrestrial to the

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idea that it was some sort of negative

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demonic force when I interviewed ray

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about this in 2007 we dug into it very

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deeply to the extent that it allowed me

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to sort of put feelers out there and

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research the story further to where I

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literally was able to uncover details of

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this think-tank type group in the

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government allied to the people that Ray

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had spoken to that essentially put me on

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the track of the book and the book is a

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study of this group and what we know

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about it and how it came to its

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conclusions and ideas about this whole

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demonic angle which as I point out in

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the book is a belief system you know in

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the same way that the extra-terrestrial

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hypothesis is a belief system but it's

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it's kind of intriguing to find that

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there are people in governments who

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research this angle and literally come

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to the conclusion that a supposed alien

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visitors have demonic origins and I do

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mean when I say demonic I mean literally

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you know burning hell demonic that sort

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of thing so we're talking about here

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the basic belief of God and the devil

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heaven in hell now I don't remember the

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name of the author I read a book about

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this a few years ago there have been

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several suggesting that we're going to

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have some kind of Ascension the people

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who follow the way in the truth kind of

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an older religious kind of philosophy so

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is that what this think-tank is

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considering that those who follow some

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kind of righteous path will survive

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whatever is going to happen that that's

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exactly what they believe they're very

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deep you know fundamentalist Christian

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belief system and again that's something

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I stress in the book that many of the

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people in the group hold deep religious

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beliefs basically what they keep things

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up for them was the idea and the notion

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that the whole UFO mystery in 47 had its

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beginnings in the work of people like

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Aleister Crowley and Jack Parsons

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Crowley with you know invoking this grey

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like being called lamb and then Parsons

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with his babylon working and supposedly

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opened and opening doorways and that

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sort of thing and they dug deeply into

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all this and the whole idea that the

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contactee movements and channeling and

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you know channeled voices and that sort

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of thing had more to do again we'd be a

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cult than it did with anything of a

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literal extraterrestrial nature and they

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took it even further delving into

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abductions and coming to the conclusion

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that abductions were a means by which

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these entities were sort of disable us

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into believing they were scientists if

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you like them beyond the stars coming

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here to save their race when they wanted

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to literally get out their clutches into

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our souls I guess in simplistic terms

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and it's very strange story about how

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this group believes they basically

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believe that the earth is a farm and

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it's after death these entities harvest

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the human life force by the soul as a

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form of energy like a food source and

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they believe that the that's why they

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don't land on the White House lawn but

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why they don't destroy us either because

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they feel that the earth is like a farm

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and then we're on our physical death

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we're literally like batteries to them

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the they extract from the human life

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force that's like a very disturbing and

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dark Dory and more disturbing

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find that you know the whole Suede's of

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people in government who clandestinely I

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guess it here to this theory for decades

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this is very interesting that we've

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heard all these stories about government

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agents and about secret

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various secret projects and maybe this

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is something I gather we'll be talking

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with mark Pilkington about later on in

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this episode but you know even if there

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is some kind of group of people who

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believe this is it just some people who

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got a hold of some government money and

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we're playing a game can they really

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support this kind of stuff well yeah I

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mean this is the important thing I

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stress in the book is that this was like

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a think-tank

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type of organization that did indeed

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yeah not so much funny to start with but

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when they particularly attracted certain

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people in government and particularly in

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the Bush administration and the Reagan

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administration who held deep religious

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end times type belief systems but they

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got a great deal more funding but it

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basically is a you know like a semi

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quasi official group of people who would

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get together at various times and you

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know undertake research into these

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different areas prepare reports etc but

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the important thing is that it was a

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belief system based around teachings of

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the Bible if you like and then applying

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it to the UFO phenomenon so you know you

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could argue that these are people within

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governments who happen to have an

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interest in UFOs as well but who all but

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where where beyond what those of us on

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the outside can do is that they got

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official funding and apparently deeply

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influenced certain people in the

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administration's that's sort of a big

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difference if you like well certainly if

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people in the administration's were

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deeply influenced that would be a

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question otherwise you know people would

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say well your tax dollars at work I mean

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you know they spend money on lots of

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wacky things and this is something

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though that we'll have to explore when

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we get a hold of the copy of the book

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and Nick will come back and we'll

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discuss it in detail but today and I

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guess it's almost a related subject

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because we're dealing with all sorts of

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strange things that might involve

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espionage and psychological warfare

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related to UFOs tell us briefly about

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our guests well I guess there's not

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Pilkington who's a

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fellow Brit who still lives in Britain I

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see mark a very occasionally now and

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again I think the first time I met mark

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was in about 1998 at a UFO conference

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and most recently I think about two

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years ago at Ryan woods crashed UFO

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conference in Las Vegas and marks a

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freelance writers written from everybody

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like the English Guardian newspaper 14

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times the anomalous and the whole range

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of other journals he wrote a book in

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2007 called far-out 101 strange tales

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from science it outer edge and he also

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runs a website called strange attractor

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where you can find all sorts of

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interesting unusual anomalies and 14

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tales etc and Mark's got a new book out

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now she said mirages men and adventuring

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to paranoia espionage psychological

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warfare and UFOs coming up next on hey

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forum dot the para cast comm we have

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00:14:42,850 --> 00:14:40,699
mark Pilkington joining us she has a new

355
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book out called Mirage men an adventure

356
00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:45,259
into paranoia espionage psychological

357
00:14:50,590 --> 00:14:48,410
warfare and UFOs I'm Jean Steinberg

358
00:14:53,230 --> 00:14:50,600
you're in the para cast our co-host this

359
00:14:55,059 --> 00:14:53,240
week is Nick Redfern mark welcome to the

360
00:14:57,549 --> 00:14:55,069
para cast we're talking to you from your

361
00:15:00,489 --> 00:14:57,559
home in the UK where it's raining it is

362
00:15:04,090 --> 00:15:00,499
raining chiselling I said typical early

363
00:15:07,150 --> 00:15:04,100
or some evening here in gray muddy

364
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:07,160
London okay so in gray muddy London how

365
00:15:14,980 --> 00:15:09,290
did you get sucked into investigating

366
00:15:17,829 --> 00:15:14,990
paranormal events in well I think I've

367
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:17,839
been fascinated with I guess the 40mm

368
00:15:22,780 --> 00:15:19,730
and anomalous phenomena since I was a

369
00:15:25,809 --> 00:15:22,790
kid really and I was like to say when

370
00:15:27,819 --> 00:15:25,819
everyone else was reading the famous

371
00:15:29,530 --> 00:15:27,829
five and you know Brighton which

372
00:15:31,809 --> 00:15:29,540
actually a wonderous american listeners

373
00:15:33,429 --> 00:15:31,819
was familiar with I was when at the age

374
00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:33,439
of seven and eight I was reading serve

375
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:35,689
HG Wells and Dracula and things like

376
00:15:43,090 --> 00:15:40,730
that so then I began to realize that

377
00:15:45,579 --> 00:15:43,100
some people thought these things were

378
00:15:48,910 --> 00:15:45,589
real not just fiction then I discovered

379
00:15:50,679 --> 00:15:48,920
14 Times Magazine at an early age and so

380
00:15:53,290 --> 00:15:50,689
I've got the four that ended up

381
00:15:54,819 --> 00:15:53,300
about fifteen years later working for

382
00:15:58,749 --> 00:15:54,829
them which was a group which was great

383
00:16:00,460 --> 00:15:58,759
and I wrote as a short investigative

384
00:16:04,419 --> 00:16:00,470
piece every issue for them for several

385
00:16:07,449 --> 00:16:04,429
years and eventually decided to go it

386
00:16:10,299 --> 00:16:07,459
alone and and Here I am with it with my

387
00:16:12,910 --> 00:16:10,309
first account it's very exciting now in

388
00:16:14,889 --> 00:16:12,920
choosing to write Mirage men among all

389
00:16:17,799 --> 00:16:14,899
the topics that one can choose why did

390
00:16:21,069 --> 00:16:17,809
you pick this one and because I've been

391
00:16:24,519 --> 00:16:21,079
I really think that UFOs are kind of the

392
00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:24,529
the most important and most immediately

393
00:16:30,249 --> 00:16:26,720
accessible and

394
00:16:32,590 --> 00:16:30,259
kind of flavor of anomalous encounter

395
00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:32,600
and experience that people are likely to

396
00:16:40,509 --> 00:16:36,470
have into to hear about or to read about

397
00:16:42,249 --> 00:16:40,519
in our modern technological world and I

398
00:16:46,449 --> 00:16:42,259
actually really think that they're an

399
00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:46,459
important part of our culture I mean

400
00:16:51,660 --> 00:16:48,889
they rep they still represent I believe

401
00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:51,670
a fascinating scientific puzzle and

402
00:16:56,799 --> 00:16:54,470
there are so you know nodal point or a

403
00:16:59,699 --> 00:16:56,809
magnet for a wide range of scientific

404
00:17:02,889 --> 00:16:59,709
anomalies from natural phenomena like

405
00:17:05,380 --> 00:17:02,899
atmospheric and astronomical events to

406
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:05,390
you know perhaps true paranormal

407
00:17:11,139 --> 00:17:07,250
phenomena extra dimensional physics or

408
00:17:14,169 --> 00:17:11,149
you know incursions into our space-time

409
00:17:16,539 --> 00:17:14,179
by something else entirely I think you

410
00:17:19,419 --> 00:17:16,549
know they are really worthy of study now

411
00:17:23,199 --> 00:17:19,429
the title mirages men that seems to

412
00:17:25,389 --> 00:17:23,209
connote some kind of semi realistic

413
00:17:27,850 --> 00:17:25,399
nature to this the fact that they're not

414
00:17:30,940 --> 00:17:27,860
always what you think they are mirages

415
00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:30,950
that they might not even be always real

416
00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:35,470
yes I mean there's a connotation of

417
00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:38,960
illusion and delusion and in the title

418
00:17:44,260 --> 00:17:41,750
and also obviously I'm so referencing

419
00:17:47,639 --> 00:17:44,270
the fact that the American desert and

420
00:17:51,610 --> 00:17:47,649
the Midwest play such a central role in

421
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:51,620
the development of the UFO story but yes

422
00:17:58,060 --> 00:17:54,770
I mean as well I think nobody would now

423
00:18:00,610 --> 00:17:58,070
serve 60 plus years down the line nobody

424
00:18:04,409 --> 00:18:00,620
would disagree that the great majority

425
00:18:08,470 --> 00:18:04,419
of us our experiences are the result of

426
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:08,480
misperceptions or misperceptions of some

427
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:13,450
kind or is just as accidental

428
00:18:19,269 --> 00:18:16,730
misidentifications of mundane objects or

429
00:18:22,990 --> 00:18:19,279
and this is what the books about on very

430
00:18:23,950 --> 00:18:23,000
rare occasions genuine deception well

431
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:23,960
that's an interesting thing about

432
00:18:28,450 --> 00:18:26,210
deceptions you know the other

433
00:18:30,159 --> 00:18:28,460
implication I got from hearing the title

434
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:30,169
mirages man I thought you know what the

435
00:18:35,529 --> 00:18:32,690
three men in black yeah okay so are we

436
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:35,539
looking into men in black as far this

437
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:38,210
overall picture interesting I mean the

438
00:18:42,770 --> 00:18:39,570
men in black is something

439
00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:42,780
I would have spent more time on this if

440
00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:44,880
I really had to keep the book counter to

441
00:18:50,330 --> 00:18:47,910
a reasonable length but the men in black

442
00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:50,340
certainly come into it and one thing I

443
00:18:55,910 --> 00:18:53,340
found when to going through the

444
00:18:58,130 --> 00:18:55,920
historical material is that contact

445
00:19:01,220 --> 00:18:58,140
officers of the different of

446
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:01,230
intelligence and military kind of their

447
00:19:07,460 --> 00:19:04,490
organizations would habitually it seems

448
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:07,470
actually dress up as people from another

449
00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:09,710
organization in order to conduct their

450
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:12,060
investigations and research and I would

451
00:19:16,790 --> 00:19:14,250
imagine occasionally they might just you

452
00:19:20,020 --> 00:19:16,800
know put on dark suits in order to

453
00:19:22,850 --> 00:19:20,030
appear imposing and and even threatening

454
00:19:25,220 --> 00:19:22,860
is kind of like a military turf war

455
00:19:29,180 --> 00:19:25,230
where the Air Force doesn't want to step

456
00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:29,190
on the Navy or the NCIS doesn't want to

457
00:19:33,770 --> 00:19:31,980
step on the army is it one of those turf

458
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:33,780
wars where they do this because they

459
00:19:39,380 --> 00:19:35,310
don't want to get involved in that kind

460
00:19:41,810 --> 00:19:39,390
of thing yeah I think I think perhaps if

461
00:19:45,140 --> 00:19:41,820
they don't want to be identified as one

462
00:19:48,790 --> 00:19:45,150
you know as one organization or another

463
00:19:53,420 --> 00:19:48,800
I think it was it was it was normal for

464
00:19:55,850 --> 00:19:53,430
certainly CIA and NSA contact officers

465
00:19:57,500 --> 00:19:55,860
to dress in civilian clothing so I would

466
00:19:59,810 --> 00:19:57,510
imagine they would dress and you know

467
00:20:02,150 --> 00:19:59,820
would yes they were involved in these

468
00:20:05,660 --> 00:20:02,160
kinds of contacts and I think they would

469
00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:05,670
know they would dress up look sharp but

470
00:20:10,010 --> 00:20:07,830
I think another important I think

471
00:20:13,010 --> 00:20:10,020
another important part that we shouldn't

472
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:13,020
underestimate in this is the ufologists

473
00:20:20,350 --> 00:20:15,360
themselves and those I think very little

474
00:20:23,030 --> 00:20:20,360
doubt that a certain to prank prone

475
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:23,040
members of the UFO community might well

476
00:20:28,130 --> 00:20:25,170
at times particularly I think in the 60s

477
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:28,140
have dressed up to play tricks on each

478
00:20:34,310 --> 00:20:31,410
other in to perform stunts and I think

479
00:20:38,210 --> 00:20:34,320
particularly of people like the late

480
00:20:40,610 --> 00:20:38,220
John keel and gray Barker and and I

481
00:20:43,730 --> 00:20:40,620
think James Mosely a source Mary suspect

482
00:20:46,010 --> 00:20:43,740
and on some occasions they have been

483
00:20:48,470 --> 00:20:46,020
somehow at least involved in men in

484
00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:48,480
black escapades well we know that Mosley

485
00:20:52,010 --> 00:20:50,370
in Barker were certainly involved in

486
00:20:53,810 --> 00:20:52,020
escapades because

487
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:53,820
Jim has basically confessed some of

488
00:20:59,540 --> 00:20:55,770
those escapades on the show

489
00:21:01,430 --> 00:20:59,550
oh great episode but I would like to yes

490
00:21:04,550 --> 00:21:01,440
I've read accounts of them doing this

491
00:21:07,790 --> 00:21:04,560
and of course and you know gray Barker

492
00:21:10,190 --> 00:21:07,800
more or less it and invented the concept

493
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:10,200
of the men in black which I mean one

494
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:12,510
possibility I think is interesting to

495
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:16,050
consider maybe after Barca head home you

496
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:17,610
know had created this concept may be

497
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:20,690
some and the intelligence or military

498
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:23,130
thought oh well here's something we can

499
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:25,440
play with is another another identity or

500
00:21:29,540 --> 00:21:28,050
another costume for a doctor so

501
00:21:32,750 --> 00:21:29,550
basically you have the fiction of the

502
00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:32,760
man in black created by gray bark or

503
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:34,860
maybe extrapolating what happened to

504
00:21:39,470 --> 00:21:37,440
Albert Kate bender many years ago and

505
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:39,480
then you have the authorities looking at

506
00:21:44,210 --> 00:21:41,970
and say hey we can do that too let's

507
00:21:46,190 --> 00:21:44,220
have some fun with it yes I think that's

508
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:46,200
certainly the case and I think that's

509
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:47,970
quite likely to be the case but I also

510
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:50,490
certainly think that kind of circularity

511
00:21:57,290 --> 00:21:54,690
is a large part of how the UFO

512
00:22:00,830 --> 00:21:57,300
phenomenon has kind of developed and

513
00:22:02,750 --> 00:22:00,840
accrued the rich mythology around it I

514
00:22:05,030 --> 00:22:02,760
think and it works both ways you know

515
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:05,040
the military and and intelligence

516
00:22:09,530 --> 00:22:06,930
authorities will play on things that

517
00:22:11,630 --> 00:22:09,540
emerge from the UFO community and where

518
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:11,640
you see that much less run in the 80s

519
00:22:16,730 --> 00:22:15,120
with the Paul bennewitz story and and I

520
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:16,740
think it I'm sure it works we oscillate

521
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:20,130
way around where the UFO community might

522
00:22:25,310 --> 00:22:22,890
adopt ideas picked up from from the

523
00:22:27,530 --> 00:22:25,320
military to Nazi there's some traffic of

524
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:27,540
there's human traffic between all those

525
00:22:33,110 --> 00:22:31,110
fears and a lot of UFO investigations

526
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:33,120
and researchers have been in the

527
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:35,610
military or intelligence at some time

528
00:22:39,290 --> 00:22:37,650
themself and maybe civilians are being

529
00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:39,300
sucked into things they shouldn't get

530
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:40,980
sucked into I want to ask you about the

531
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:42,720
benefits case for people who are new to

532
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:44,640
the show and haven't heard about that in

533
00:22:49,670 --> 00:22:47,010
our next segment we have mark Pilkington

534
00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:49,680
he's author of Mirage men the co-host is

535
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:52,110
Nicolas Redfern I'm Jean Steinberg

536
00:22:59,660 --> 00:22:55,090
you're in the paragraph

537
00:23:04,050 --> 00:23:02,100
okay neighbors here's the problem

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00:23:06,330 --> 00:23:04,060
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581
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582
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583
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seven six oh eight or 179 main military

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comm the main name in military supply if

585
00:25:03,660 --> 00:25:02,500
you've used the drug Raylan or Shin Eric

586
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:03,670
for metoclopramide

587
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:05,890
please listen carefully Reglan has been

588
00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:07,570
shown to cause serious neurologic

589
00:25:11,490 --> 00:25:09,670
side effects consisting of involuntary

590
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:11,500
movements of the face limbs and other

591
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:13,690
body parts if you or a loved one has

592
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:15,370
suffered this condition call the New

593
00:25:19,260 --> 00:25:17,200
York and New Jersey law from of Ashman

594
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:19,270
and mira sola at eight eight eight seven

595
00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:21,250
three zero drug that's eight eight eight

596
00:25:24,930 --> 00:25:23,200
seven three zero drug for a free

597
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consultation call eight eight eight

598
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seven three zero drug that's eight eight

599
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eight seven three zero three seven eight

600
00:25:34,170 --> 00:25:32,140
four if you've taken the contraceptive

601
00:25:35,970 --> 00:25:34,180
yaz or Yasmin please listen carefully

602
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:35,980
these drugs have been found to cause

603
00:25:39,990 --> 00:25:38,080
blood clots in the body and gall bladder

604
00:25:41,850 --> 00:25:40,000
disease if you or a loved one has

605
00:25:43,590 --> 00:25:41,860
suffered these side-effects contact the

606
00:25:45,300 --> 00:25:43,600
New York and New Jersey firm of Ashman

607
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:45,310
and mira Sola at eight eight eight seven

608
00:25:49,050 --> 00:25:47,410
three zero Draghi immediately for free

609
00:25:51,150 --> 00:25:49,060
consultation call eight eight eight

610
00:25:53,130 --> 00:25:51,160
seven three zero drug that's eight eight

611
00:25:55,380 --> 00:25:53,140
eight seven three zero three seven eight

612
00:25:57,210 --> 00:25:55,390
four again call Ashman and mira sola at

613
00:26:00,030 --> 00:25:57,220
eight eight eight seven three zero three

614
00:26:02,130 --> 00:26:00,040
seven eight four hi this is alex jones

615
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:02,140
remember when I said you spell freedom

616
00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:05,530
fo OD it's really true legislation is in

617
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:07,510
the process of restricting the growing

618
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:09,610
and sharing of food and a record number

619
00:26:14,340 --> 00:26:12,490
of Americans over 43 million depend on

620
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:14,350
the government to feed themselves food

621
00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:16,690
prices are going up for Americans prices

622
00:26:21,270 --> 00:26:18,910
are going up even for a foods to read

623
00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:21,280
calm this will require their first price

624
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:23,470
increase in three years the most

625
00:26:27,450 --> 00:26:25,360
important thing Americans can do for

626
00:26:29,910 --> 00:26:27,460
their own freedom and survival in these

627
00:26:31,650 --> 00:26:29,920
hardest of times is to get supplies of

628
00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:31,660
high-quality storable food because of

629
00:26:35,850 --> 00:26:33,520
the huge response to this by three and

630
00:26:37,740 --> 00:26:35,860
get one free special ethos erect calm

631
00:26:40,020 --> 00:26:37,750
will continue this special until

632
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:40,030
September 27th right now you can buy

633
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:41,710
three and get one free at the old prices

634
00:26:47,550 --> 00:26:44,320
but move fast because this offer ends

635
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:47,560
September 27th call 1-800 409 five six

636
00:26:52,170 --> 00:26:49,510
three three or on the web at eat foods

637
00:26:54,090 --> 00:26:52,180
direct calm forward slash Alex that's

638
00:26:56,190 --> 00:26:54,100
eight hundred four oh nine five six

639
00:27:01,050 --> 00:26:56,200
three three are on the web at eat foods

640
00:27:03,180 --> 00:27:01,060
direct comm forward slash Alex tired of

641
00:27:05,580 --> 00:27:03,190
searching for great talk radio and I

642
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:05,590
think it really does make a difference

643
00:27:20,610 --> 00:27:15,340
you're in the pair gasp you never know

644
00:27:26,470 --> 00:27:23,799
we were talking with Mark filking ttan

645
00:27:28,450 --> 00:27:26,480
author of Mirage Minh our co-host is

646
00:27:30,820 --> 00:27:28,460
Nick Redfern I'm gene Steinberg were in

647
00:27:33,610 --> 00:27:30,830
the power cast with another segment with

648
00:27:36,490 --> 00:27:33,620
Mark and I wanted to ask you one of the

649
00:27:39,940 --> 00:27:36,500
classic attempts ed harassment and

650
00:27:42,580 --> 00:27:39,950
disinformation is Paul bennewitz can you

651
00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:42,590
refresh the memory of our listeners

652
00:27:48,790 --> 00:27:45,230
about this case yes certainly under the

653
00:27:51,580 --> 00:27:48,800
Benowitz story is the best-known and

654
00:27:57,030 --> 00:27:51,590
probably this have only genuinely

655
00:28:00,070 --> 00:27:57,040
accepted instance of a Air Force

656
00:28:02,530 --> 00:28:00,080
deception programs of being uncovered

657
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:02,540
and exposed and that we've actually done

658
00:28:09,070 --> 00:28:07,010
back in 1989 by William Moore the UFO

659
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:09,080
researcher and author of the Roswell

660
00:28:16,030 --> 00:28:12,290
incident who actually was himself kind

661
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:16,040
of wrapped up in the in the program and

662
00:28:21,850 --> 00:28:18,770
Paul bennewitz was a physicist and

663
00:28:25,270 --> 00:28:21,860
engineer running his own labs under

664
00:28:27,910 --> 00:28:25,280
scientific on the edge of Kirtland Air

665
00:28:31,810 --> 00:28:27,920
Force Base in Albuquerque where he was

666
00:28:34,090 --> 00:28:31,820
developing tools and engages and

667
00:28:36,340 --> 00:28:34,100
equipment for also certainly for the Air

668
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:36,350
Force and the Navy I think for NASA as

669
00:28:43,030 --> 00:28:40,610
well and they're kind of various paths

670
00:28:46,990 --> 00:28:43,040
that you can take with the story but the

671
00:28:50,590 --> 00:28:47,000
severe fact so that he in 1980 began

672
00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:50,600
filming and and observing strange light

673
00:28:57,930 --> 00:28:55,760
so flying within clear ice I shot of his

674
00:29:01,750 --> 00:28:57,940
own home at the side of the base and

675
00:29:04,450 --> 00:29:01,760
also began picking up radio or

676
00:29:08,020 --> 00:29:04,460
electromagnetic emissions which he

677
00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:08,030
connected to these lights and dutifully

678
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:11,360
reported to the security personnel at

679
00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:14,690
Kirtland as as would would be the right

680
00:29:22,390 --> 00:29:19,870
thing to do and instead of either saying

681
00:29:23,950 --> 00:29:22,400
thanks for letting a smoke ball but you

682
00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:23,960
know don't worry these are our own

683
00:29:28,450 --> 00:29:26,510
crafts don't you know don't don't worry

684
00:29:30,610 --> 00:29:28,460
about it and just we'd rather you didn't

685
00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:30,620
to keep filming them I'll keep talking

686
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:33,760
about them instead they actually

687
00:29:40,390 --> 00:29:37,520
encouraged they know it's in in to

688
00:29:42,660 --> 00:29:40,400
continue sort of monitoring these the

689
00:29:45,430 --> 00:29:42,670
lights and the emissions and actually

690
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:45,440
encouraged him in his growing belief and

691
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:49,210
and delusion that these were

692
00:29:54,910 --> 00:29:51,010
extraterrestrial in nature and this

693
00:30:00,160 --> 00:29:54,920
continued for actually for several years

694
00:30:02,530 --> 00:30:00,170
and ultimately said grew out of hand to

695
00:30:04,150 --> 00:30:02,540
the extent that bennewitz was

696
00:30:06,670 --> 00:30:04,160
hospitalized for his own good

697
00:30:10,510 --> 00:30:06,680
by his family in a mental institution

698
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:10,520
for a month and really so his his life

699
00:30:15,730 --> 00:30:13,490
his family life his business and I think

700
00:30:18,970 --> 00:30:15,740
everything suffered as a result there's

701
00:30:20,710 --> 00:30:18,980
a very complicated story which I so tell

702
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:20,720
in the book and is also very well told

703
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:24,320
in Greg bishops project beta but which

704
00:30:32,350 --> 00:30:28,730
is about was also available so one point

705
00:30:36,550 --> 00:30:32,360
where so the version of events that I so

706
00:30:38,980 --> 00:30:36,560
followed differs from from Greg's ISM

707
00:30:41,290 --> 00:30:38,990
very early on it's quite clear that

708
00:30:43,950 --> 00:30:41,300
generous could have been stopped dead in

709
00:30:48,220 --> 00:30:43,960
his tracks by Air Force intelligence

710
00:30:49,450 --> 00:30:48,230
survivors by the military and by and

711
00:30:52,390 --> 00:30:49,460
they could have actually forced him to

712
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:52,400
stop listening in on their transmission

713
00:30:58,050 --> 00:30:54,890
and to stop filming but they chose not

714
00:31:01,900 --> 00:30:58,060
to which begs the question why and I I

715
00:31:05,940 --> 00:31:01,910
suggest following Brad sparks and Barry

716
00:31:09,130 --> 00:31:05,950
Greenwoods own research I suggest that

717
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:09,140
really the idea was to use Benowitz as a

718
00:31:14,550 --> 00:31:11,810
mouthpiece to spread disinformation into

719
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:14,560
the UFO community which he did extremely

720
00:31:19,210 --> 00:31:17,690
successfully through through multiple

721
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:19,220
channels and through multiple

722
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:23,570
individuals and these ideas that he kind

723
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:26,930
of and pumped into the UFO culture are

724
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:28,370
still with us today and you know

725
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:31,010
including the idea of an underground

726
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:34,090
alien base that Dulce New Mexico

727
00:31:39,610 --> 00:31:36,890
impotence of trade agreements between

728
00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:39,620
negotiations and agreements between the

729
00:31:45,310 --> 00:31:41,360
US government and the extraterrestrials

730
00:31:47,530 --> 00:31:45,320
and and also the said malevolent hungry

731
00:31:50,110 --> 00:31:47,540
nature of the extraterrestrials

732
00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:50,120
themselves or a lot of these ideas what

733
00:31:57,250 --> 00:31:53,390
kind of took what were developed in

734
00:32:00,640 --> 00:31:57,260
Benowitz have already sort of disturbed

735
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:00,650
mind and then led to a kind of dramatic

736
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:04,970
up surgence of interest in the UFO story

737
00:32:09,150 --> 00:32:06,710
and in the popular culture in this of

738
00:32:11,530 --> 00:32:09,160
late 80s and early 90s most of it

739
00:32:14,530 --> 00:32:11,540
predicated around this kind of negative

740
00:32:17,230 --> 00:32:14,540
and slightly well actually quite

741
00:32:19,450 --> 00:32:17,240
terrifying idea that that the

742
00:32:22,030 --> 00:32:19,460
extraterrestrials were malevolent and we

743
00:32:25,690 --> 00:32:22,040
were just about holding them at bay also

744
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:25,700
this also responsible for the stories in

745
00:32:30,039 --> 00:32:28,010
connection with UFO abductions that the

746
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:30,049
aliens might be trying to create a race

747
00:32:34,630 --> 00:32:31,730
of hybrids is that part of this

748
00:32:38,970 --> 00:32:34,640
deception yes well that was certainly

749
00:32:41,380 --> 00:32:38,980
something that I know it's kind of

750
00:32:44,110 --> 00:32:41,390
developed that was wondering see desert

751
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:44,120
but that was also kind of circulating in

752
00:32:50,140 --> 00:32:47,210
the in the Castro time but he conducted

753
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:50,150
hypnotic sessions with a woman called

754
00:32:57,490 --> 00:32:53,770
Maria Hansen who described so terrifying

755
00:33:00,700 --> 00:32:57,500
scenes in an underground alien in an

756
00:33:02,890 --> 00:33:00,710
underground alien base involving human

757
00:33:05,830 --> 00:33:02,900
body parts bubbling away in bats and

758
00:33:09,820 --> 00:33:05,840
mutilated Carol's being carried into the

759
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:09,830
into the into the environment for

760
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:12,799
experimentation and and also the idea

761
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:15,440
that she'd been implanted by the aliens

762
00:33:20,820 --> 00:33:18,110
to in order to control her thoughts and

763
00:33:23,169 --> 00:33:20,830
actions and and to make her room

764
00:33:24,850 --> 00:33:23,179
traceable at any point by the

765
00:33:28,690 --> 00:33:24,860
extraterrestrials all of these ideas

766
00:33:32,470 --> 00:33:28,700
were versus it's not originated by

767
00:33:35,799 --> 00:33:32,480
Benowitz but we're certainly exacerbated

768
00:33:39,130 --> 00:33:35,809
by him and pumped with much Augusto into

769
00:33:41,230 --> 00:33:39,140
the UFO culture well of course one

770
00:33:43,930 --> 00:33:41,240
example of someone who follows this sort

771
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:43,940
of thing is a UFO abduction researcher

772
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:46,250
dr. David Jacobs who's also been on the

773
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:48,090
show he's basically

774
00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:51,090
a doctor in history but he's been doing

775
00:33:56,690 --> 00:33:53,279
abduction research and he believes that

776
00:34:00,909 --> 00:33:56,700
parently in this hybrid thing is he also

777
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:00,919
being taken in by this very very

778
00:34:06,919 --> 00:34:04,370
complicated and long story actually saw

779
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:06,929
Jacobs give one I think his first ever

780
00:34:12,740 --> 00:34:09,810
presentation in the UK and mid 90s and

781
00:34:13,940 --> 00:34:12,750
it worried me that would be terrified my

782
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:13,950
friend he couldn't sleep at night

783
00:34:20,359 --> 00:34:18,240
afterwards but I think yes I mean I

784
00:34:26,210 --> 00:34:20,369
think you know there are several people

785
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:26,220
who have been kind of I suppose those

786
00:34:32,030 --> 00:34:28,530
mutually encouraging each other in

787
00:34:34,669 --> 00:34:32,040
developing the survey Leonid duction

788
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:34,679
narrative those obviously but Hopkins as

789
00:34:40,550 --> 00:34:38,639
well as Paul bennewitz and and David

790
00:34:45,109 --> 00:34:40,560
records and yet some reached a point

791
00:34:47,450 --> 00:34:45,119
where the story has become that yes

792
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:47,460
there's a hybrid breeding program in

793
00:34:53,089 --> 00:34:49,679
order to I don't know whether it's to

794
00:34:55,099 --> 00:34:53,099
repopulate er an alien planet or to take

795
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:55,109
over our own I'm not sure but you know

796
00:34:58,849 --> 00:34:56,970
you can see the evolution of this

797
00:35:01,550 --> 00:34:58,859
narrative and it's and it's a

798
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:01,560
frightening narrative over the course of

799
00:35:08,180 --> 00:35:05,130
20 or 30 years and so the question I

800
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:08,190
would ask is if we think back to the

801
00:35:13,970 --> 00:35:10,770
late 80s and through to the mid nineties

802
00:35:15,530 --> 00:35:13,980
when the abduction scenario was really

803
00:35:18,530 --> 00:35:15,540
part of the popular culture and you

804
00:35:22,250 --> 00:35:18,540
would see the grey alien cases and the

805
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:22,260
schwa stickers and and you know

806
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:24,810
inflatable doll almost everywhere you

807
00:35:28,430 --> 00:35:26,490
look physically if you were in America

808
00:35:30,609 --> 00:35:28,440
as I was at the time you have to wonder

809
00:35:33,220 --> 00:35:30,619
where they've all gone now but the

810
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:33,230
aliens realized they were getting too

811
00:35:38,870 --> 00:35:36,690
too much exposure and decided to go on

812
00:35:41,630 --> 00:35:38,880
well when they got enough of our sperm

813
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:41,640
and enough of our babies or fetuses and

814
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:44,010
they decide to do something else

815
00:35:49,099 --> 00:35:46,770
somewhere else yes of course but that's

816
00:35:52,329 --> 00:35:49,109
a possibility but and I mean I would

817
00:35:59,329 --> 00:35:52,339
personally I would read the abduction

818
00:36:01,580 --> 00:35:59,339
abduction scenarios of as a as a as a

819
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:01,590
myth or as a law that has soda

820
00:36:06,190 --> 00:36:03,570
and probably tell her to tell us more

821
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:06,200
about ourselves and it does about

822
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:08,970
extraterrestrial we'll have Nick Redfern

823
00:36:13,670 --> 00:36:11,130
joining on the questioning in a moment

824
00:36:15,740 --> 00:36:13,680
we have mark Pilkington he's author at

825
00:36:18,770 --> 00:36:15,750
Mirage men subtitled an adventure into

826
00:36:22,370 --> 00:36:18,780
paranoia espionage psychological warfare

827
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:22,380
and the UFOs and evidently some of that

828
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:24,930
psychological warfare may involve UFO

829
00:36:28,460 --> 00:36:26,370
abductions a reminder if you have

830
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:28,470
comments about the show you of course

831
00:36:32,330 --> 00:36:30,450
can write us but you could also check

832
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:32,340
out our forums at forum top of the power

833
00:36:38,210 --> 00:36:35,370
cast com that's forum dot the power cast

834
00:36:40,580 --> 00:36:38,220
comm it's free to sign up free to get

835
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:40,590
involved and the discussions can become

836
00:36:45,290 --> 00:36:42,810
rather fierce rather hot and heavy but

837
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:45,300
they're nevertheless fun our co-host is

838
00:36:54,460 --> 00:36:47,520
Nick Redfern I'm gene Steinberg you're

839
00:37:02,210 --> 00:36:59,440
[Music]

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Constitution how to argue with a liberal

918
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919
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every time if you believe it's time we

920
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stop disgusting left-wing lies and start

921
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922
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923
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924
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925
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Constitution is an audio power program

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that includes six CDs jam-packed with

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930
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that will shut the mouth of any lie

931
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loving liberal order your crash course

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on the US Constitution online at the

933
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939
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bringing you the best in alternative

940
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talk radio for over ten years

941
00:41:13,870 --> 00:41:11,869
GCN's great talk radio starts here hi

942
00:41:17,410 --> 00:41:13,880
this is Nate Pope's you're listening to

943
00:41:20,380 --> 00:41:17,420
the parrot talk Nick Redfern is our

944
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:20,390
co-host our guest is Mark Pilkington

945
00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:22,730
author a mirage men an adventurer

946
00:41:27,039 --> 00:41:24,710
definitely an adventurer I'm just adding

947
00:41:31,900 --> 00:41:27,049
that into paranoia espionage

948
00:41:34,059 --> 00:41:31,910
psychological warfare and UFOs Thank You

949
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:34,069
Jean Steinberg you're in the power cast

950
00:41:39,220 --> 00:41:36,410
we were talking about abductions being

951
00:41:40,930 --> 00:41:39,230
part of the disinformation scenario Nick

952
00:41:42,609 --> 00:41:40,940
you want to continue with that with the

953
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:42,619
questioning and pursue what you would

954
00:41:46,839 --> 00:41:45,170
like to yeah sure I mean I think one of

955
00:41:49,359 --> 00:41:46,849
the important things just forget to the

956
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:49,369
questions genius to point out for there

957
00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:51,170
for the listeners who may not have marks

958
00:41:55,870 --> 00:41:53,569
book yet but the books are very much

959
00:41:58,480 --> 00:41:55,880
like a road trip of Mark and a friend

960
00:42:00,420 --> 00:41:58,490
and colleague of marks John Lundberg as

961
00:42:03,339 --> 00:42:00,430
they travel around the u.s.

962
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:03,349
investigating the whole UFO mystery and

963
00:42:08,349 --> 00:42:05,450
speaking to a lot of well-known figures

964
00:42:10,870 --> 00:42:08,359
within the UFO field and some I guess

965
00:42:13,359 --> 00:42:10,880
almost new legendary figures people I

966
00:42:14,859 --> 00:42:13,369
let Richard Doty and literally hanging

967
00:42:18,730 --> 00:42:14,869
out with them for like a week and it's

968
00:42:22,029 --> 00:42:18,740
sort of very good road trip feel of two

969
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:22,039
guys immersing themselves in what is

970
00:42:25,870 --> 00:42:23,690
sort of one of the strangest phenomena

971
00:42:28,029 --> 00:42:25,880
out there and actually finding

972
00:42:30,609 --> 00:42:28,039
themselves I guess to some extent at a

973
00:42:32,740 --> 00:42:30,619
loss from from their moorings almost of

974
00:42:34,990 --> 00:42:32,750
wondering what to believe who to believe

975
00:42:37,359 --> 00:42:35,000
what not to believe and who not to

976
00:42:39,490 --> 00:42:37,369
believe so in that respect you know it's

977
00:42:41,740 --> 00:42:39,500
a it's a very good treatment of what

978
00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:41,750
happens when you know an investigative

979
00:42:46,749 --> 00:42:44,390
journalist gets on the road and really

980
00:42:49,630 --> 00:42:46,759
delves deep into the UFO mystery and I

981
00:42:52,299 --> 00:42:49,640
think the good thing is that Mark's book

982
00:42:54,759 --> 00:42:52,309
doesn't come across as like a wide-eyed

983
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:54,769
want to be true believer but equally

984
00:42:59,319 --> 00:42:56,210
it's not as some people have actually

985
00:43:02,069 --> 00:42:59,329
said like a debunking exercise it's more

986
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:02,079
an open-minded look at the subject and

987
00:43:06,670 --> 00:43:03,890
realizing that there's been a great deal

988
00:43:09,609 --> 00:43:06,680
of manipulation of the phenomenon by the

989
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:09,619
intelligence services but not dismissing

990
00:43:14,740 --> 00:43:12,170
the possibility that at the heart of it

991
00:43:16,359 --> 00:43:14,750
there really could be a genuine UFO

992
00:43:18,770 --> 00:43:16,369
mystery would you agree with that mark

993
00:43:22,580 --> 00:43:18,780
if I sort of read it right absolutely

994
00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:22,590
so the most brilliant tech summary yet

995
00:43:29,890 --> 00:43:26,250
sir thanks very much no no I have you

996
00:43:34,430 --> 00:43:29,900
know I could spend if I send up all day

997
00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:34,440
hours of responding to the online to

998
00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:36,510
postings of people saying I'm just

999
00:43:41,780 --> 00:43:38,910
another debunker and the book you know

1000
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:41,790
has nothing you saw sir I would I would

1001
00:43:46,370 --> 00:43:44,130
you know really have no time for

1002
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:46,380
anything off and then if I had a pound

1003
00:43:50,530 --> 00:43:48,810
for all the times that people said that

1004
00:43:55,460 --> 00:43:50,540
without actually reading the book and I

1005
00:43:57,110 --> 00:43:55,470
might be a rich man but that's

1006
00:44:00,380 --> 00:43:57,120
absolutely right along the thing I

1007
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:00,390
wanted to do was kind of provide a sense

1008
00:44:04,940 --> 00:44:02,970
of what it actually feels like to kind

1009
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:04,950
you know to become immersed in this

1010
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:08,850
material and and as you say to to try

1011
00:44:13,610 --> 00:44:10,890
and present the thought processes and

1012
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:13,620
the emotions involved in just trying to

1013
00:44:19,420 --> 00:44:16,170
make sense of what is an incredibly

1014
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:19,430
complex and and often baffling and often

1015
00:44:26,090 --> 00:44:23,760
disturbing story and here one of the

1016
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:26,100
things I've been it's been great to hear

1017
00:44:30,830 --> 00:44:28,290
from people is that they think that the

1018
00:44:33,790 --> 00:44:30,840
book has actually been it helped them to

1019
00:44:36,380 --> 00:44:33,800
serve you know fighter path through the

1020
00:44:39,410 --> 00:44:36,390
mountains and mountains and mountains

1021
00:44:42,590 --> 00:44:39,420
and terabytes of material that that's

1022
00:44:44,780 --> 00:44:42,600
out there and can be incredibly baffling

1023
00:44:48,850 --> 00:44:44,790
and confusing to people who aren't

1024
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:48,860
already well-versed in the subject and

1025
00:44:53,540 --> 00:44:51,930
one of the things I also really wanted

1026
00:44:55,100 --> 00:44:53,550
to do with the book is to make it an

1027
00:44:58,040 --> 00:44:55,110
outward-looking

1028
00:45:01,760 --> 00:44:58,050
talk about UFOs rather than just have

1029
00:45:04,580 --> 00:45:01,770
another us over tips and you know not

1030
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:04,590
engaging with the wider world around it

1031
00:45:09,110 --> 00:45:07,650
and hope it was important to me to put

1032
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:09,120
the when I was looking at the historical

1033
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:11,970
side of the subject to put that into the

1034
00:45:15,770 --> 00:45:14,130
context of what was going on in the

1035
00:45:19,190 --> 00:45:15,780
world I think you know that's that's

1036
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:19,200
really very important for for people to

1037
00:45:25,340 --> 00:45:22,410
to gain observed deeper and wider

1038
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:25,350
understanding of where UFOs fit into

1039
00:45:31,790 --> 00:45:28,850
into our world and our culture okay and

1040
00:45:32,710 --> 00:45:31,800
early on in the book probably you you

1041
00:45:34,570 --> 00:45:32,720
get into one of the mo

1042
00:45:36,610 --> 00:45:34,580
stainless and I guess almost formative

1043
00:45:39,310 --> 00:45:36,620
cases of the mud near of ufology that's

1044
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:39,320
Roswell and you know you actually you

1045
00:45:43,090 --> 00:45:41,690
talk about quite deeply be the story of

1046
00:45:44,980 --> 00:45:43,100
the flying source of the book by

1047
00:45:46,540 --> 00:45:44,990
Bernhard Newman which actually is I didn

1048
00:45:49,150 --> 00:45:46,550
t know this it gets really released this

1049
00:45:51,730 --> 00:45:49,160
month the numeration had been published

1050
00:45:53,980 --> 00:45:51,740
in oh can you talk a bit about that and

1051
00:45:55,990 --> 00:45:53,990
how that sort of I meet a genuinely

1052
00:45:58,330 --> 00:45:56,000
fascinating story of how it ties in with

1053
00:46:01,270 --> 00:45:58,340
the whole Roswell saga and who a human

1054
00:46:04,750 --> 00:46:01,280
was etc it really is and then and I

1055
00:46:06,460 --> 00:46:04,760
first heard about this from Magana

1056
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:06,470
magazine which there's a very long

1057
00:46:12,730 --> 00:46:10,370
running British UFO and folklore mag

1058
00:46:14,620 --> 00:46:12,740
another must have read about it and I

1059
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:14,630
think in the in the early nineties but

1060
00:46:20,230 --> 00:46:17,930
it's a book published in 1948 and

1061
00:46:24,610 --> 00:46:20,240
written by a man called Bernhard Newman

1062
00:46:26,860 --> 00:46:24,620
who wrote several serve potboiler spy

1063
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:26,870
thrillers really but he had genuinely

1064
00:46:31,690 --> 00:46:29,210
worked in British intelligence and was

1065
00:46:33,850 --> 00:46:31,700
actually quite well respected as a as a

1066
00:46:38,050 --> 00:46:33,860
as an operation in that field and I

1067
00:46:39,670 --> 00:46:38,060
think as a result of probably was privy

1068
00:46:42,100 --> 00:46:39,680
to a few you know tip bits of

1069
00:46:44,950 --> 00:46:42,110
information certainly to ideas that were

1070
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:44,960
floating around and it takes really as

1071
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:49,610
its premise the statement made by the

1072
00:46:56,410 --> 00:46:53,770
then foreign secretary Anthony Eden and

1073
00:47:00,220 --> 00:46:56,420
one that served been repeated many times

1074
00:47:03,370 --> 00:47:00,230
curiously by Ronald Reagan might suffice

1075
00:47:06,100 --> 00:47:03,380
and essentially saying I wouldn't the

1076
00:47:08,860 --> 00:47:06,110
world stopped fighting and when we all

1077
00:47:12,970 --> 00:47:08,870
come to realize we're just one species

1078
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:12,980
on our blue planet if we work taste with

1079
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:15,290
it some kind of threat from from outer

1080
00:47:20,740 --> 00:47:19,490
space in fact here's the quote this is

1081
00:47:24,420 --> 00:47:20,750
actually at the United Nations

1082
00:47:26,950 --> 00:47:24,430
conference on the 1st of March 1947 and

1083
00:47:29,140 --> 00:47:26,960
Anthony Eden said sometimes I think the

1084
00:47:31,420 --> 00:47:29,150
people of this distracted planet will

1085
00:47:33,250 --> 00:47:31,430
never really get together until they

1086
00:47:34,380 --> 00:47:33,260
find someone on laughs to get mad

1087
00:47:39,610 --> 00:47:34,390
against

1088
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:39,620
so in Newman's book a kind of secret

1089
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:42,650
cabal of scientists and international

1090
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:46,490
cabal for scientists launched a series

1091
00:47:50,890 --> 00:47:49,310
of rockets and crashed them around the

1092
00:47:54,990 --> 00:47:50,900
world in different parts of the world

1093
00:47:59,920 --> 00:47:55,000
and and on each of these Rockets is

1094
00:48:02,050 --> 00:47:59,930
encoded as a hieroglyphic script and the

1095
00:48:05,590 --> 00:48:02,060
script kind of pieces together the fact

1096
00:48:07,540 --> 00:48:05,600
that these are from outer space and that

1097
00:48:10,660 --> 00:48:07,550
they're coming here and actually at the

1098
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:10,670
end of the novel those scientists kind

1099
00:48:16,870 --> 00:48:13,730
of faked an alien invasion with people

1100
00:48:19,030 --> 00:48:16,880
walking around in so strange kind of

1101
00:48:22,090 --> 00:48:19,040
costumes made out of various animal

1102
00:48:25,420 --> 00:48:22,100
parts that the the end result is is as

1103
00:48:27,430 --> 00:48:25,430
hopeful which is that all the worlds are

1104
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:27,440
actually bizarrely all given their own

1105
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:30,770
nuclear weapons and therefore piece 5 so

1106
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:32,450
that to date there's a little bit pat

1107
00:48:38,410 --> 00:48:36,050
and said that the parallel with you know

1108
00:48:41,530 --> 00:48:38,420
what would happen what would had

1109
00:48:44,830 --> 00:48:41,540
happened the previous year and in

1110
00:48:47,740 --> 00:48:44,840
roswell the idea that something crashed

1111
00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:47,750
it was an out to their initially

1112
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:52,000
announced as a lying for sir and i also

1113
00:48:59,050 --> 00:48:54,770
quite strange i would say to say the

1114
00:49:02,890 --> 00:48:59,060
least and the resonances are there and

1115
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:02,900
the i don't we don't know if that was

1116
00:49:08,140 --> 00:49:06,010
the motivation behind the roswell

1117
00:49:11,530 --> 00:49:08,150
announcement it's asked but certainly

1118
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:11,540
and so that the paradoxes can't be

1119
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:14,510
avoided and and and as i said the theme

1120
00:49:20,620 --> 00:49:18,170
of you know a threat from outer space

1121
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:20,630
uniting that this is warring factions on

1122
00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:23,450
earth is one that comes up bravely

1123
00:49:27,030 --> 00:49:25,520
throughout the 20th century and

1124
00:49:30,820 --> 00:49:27,040
throughout the history of the Cold War

1125
00:49:34,390 --> 00:49:30,830
and in the nineteen fifties actually

1126
00:49:36,849 --> 00:49:34,400
Leon Davidson the Manhattan Project

1127
00:49:39,210 --> 00:49:36,859
scientists and UFO researcher actually

1128
00:49:44,050 --> 00:49:39,220
took seeing several steps further and

1129
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:44,060
suggested that Allen Dulles of the CIA

1130
00:49:52,180 --> 00:49:49,210
was actually behind the kind of plan to

1131
00:49:55,780 --> 00:49:52,190
fake flying for for landings in order to

1132
00:49:58,150 --> 00:49:55,790
promote this kind of sense of global

1133
00:50:00,839 --> 00:49:58,160
unity and and and

1134
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:00,849
and for cosmic awareness and in

1135
00:50:06,309 --> 00:50:04,010
humankind now I want to mention very

1136
00:50:08,950 --> 00:50:06,319
briefly dr. Leon Davidson because I knew

1137
00:50:11,260 --> 00:50:08,960
him casually okay yeah because he used

1138
00:50:14,319 --> 00:50:11,270
to hang out with Jim Mosely in the old

1139
00:50:17,470 --> 00:50:14,329
ways and he also released I guess an

1140
00:50:20,740 --> 00:50:17,480
annotated version of Project Blue Book

1141
00:50:23,079 --> 00:50:20,750
special report 14 right that's right

1142
00:50:27,430 --> 00:50:23,089
that's the one where a large number of

1143
00:50:31,029 --> 00:50:27,440
very significant cases were included the

1144
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:31,039
addition I found amazingly at the

1145
00:50:35,859 --> 00:50:32,690
British Library actually I was surprised

1146
00:50:37,390 --> 00:50:35,869
by that from mid-1970s has a kind of

1147
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:37,400
appendix which I found very useful

1148
00:50:42,990 --> 00:50:39,730
called the CIA and the sources which

1149
00:50:45,819 --> 00:50:43,000
collects a lot of his writings from

1150
00:50:47,230 --> 00:50:45,829
various UFO magazines and and proved to

1151
00:50:49,779 --> 00:50:47,240
be a real treasure trove of information

1152
00:50:51,250 --> 00:50:49,789
actually but he was a very very

1153
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:51,260
interesting character I think it's as

1154
00:50:58,329 --> 00:50:55,280
much neglected and important figure in

1155
00:51:00,400 --> 00:50:58,339
the early development of the USO of the

1156
00:51:02,620 --> 00:51:00,410
USO story I think if people had paid

1157
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:02,630
more attention to him early on I think

1158
00:51:09,490 --> 00:51:04,910
things would have turned out very

1159
00:51:11,140 --> 00:51:09,500
differently so there yeah well without

1160
00:51:14,829 --> 00:51:11,150
going into much detail I think some of

1161
00:51:19,089 --> 00:51:14,839
us think for the UFO field as a whole is

1162
00:51:21,370 --> 00:51:19,099
one big ungainly mess mm-hm and we'll

1163
00:51:23,500 --> 00:51:21,380
get into that in more detail our next

1164
00:51:25,630 --> 00:51:23,510
segment we have marc Pilkington who's

1165
00:51:28,390 --> 00:51:25,640
author at Mirage men an adventure into

1166
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:28,400
paranoia espionage psychological warfare

1167
00:51:33,279 --> 00:51:31,730
and UFOs there folks I remembered every

1168
00:51:34,750 --> 00:51:33,289
word without looking at the book in

1169
00:51:36,039 --> 00:51:34,760
front of me it's not in front of me

1170
00:51:37,839 --> 00:51:36,049
right now I'm not looking at them

1171
00:51:39,549 --> 00:51:37,849
looking at my time clock for the show

1172
00:51:41,650 --> 00:51:39,559
but it's right there and I remembered it

1173
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:41,660
our co-host is Nick Redfern I'm gene

1174
00:51:52,210 --> 00:51:49,529
[Music]

1175
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:52,220
hi this is Ted Anderson if you own an

1176
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:54,170
Apple iPhone and love to listen to your

1177
00:51:58,210 --> 00:51:56,450
favorite programs on GCN I've got good

1178
00:52:00,519 --> 00:51:58,220
news for you I'm proud to announce that

1179
00:52:03,099 --> 00:52:00,529
GCN has a brand new iPhone app available

1180
00:52:05,049 --> 00:52:03,109
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1181
00:52:07,150 --> 00:52:05,059
live.com listen to your favorite

1182
00:52:09,249 --> 00:52:07,160
hard-hitting GCN programs live or

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00:52:11,470 --> 00:52:09,259
on-demand right on your iPhone and the

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00:52:13,839 --> 00:52:11,480
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1186
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:15,680
iPhone app today by clicking on the

1187
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:18,170
banner at GC and live.com again that's

1188
00:52:23,229 --> 00:52:21,170
GCN live.com we the people grow cotton

1189
00:52:24,789 --> 00:52:23,239
wheat fabric engraving can bed strips

1190
00:52:26,620 --> 00:52:24,799
and fibers to protect from counterfeit

1191
00:52:27,670 --> 00:52:26,630
than carding to a private bank having a

1192
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:27,680
led back at interest

1193
00:52:31,299 --> 00:52:29,450
forcing taxes to service debt this

1194
00:52:32,769 --> 00:52:31,309
capitalism was Jefferson correct when

1195
00:52:34,390 --> 00:52:32,779
stating a central bank issuing the

1196
00:52:35,529 --> 00:52:34,400
public currency is a greater menace to

1197
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:35,539
the liberties of the people than a

1198
00:52:38,319 --> 00:52:36,890
standing army today understand I'm

1199
00:52:40,180 --> 00:52:38,329
placing a free silver dollar in a book

1200
00:52:43,630 --> 00:52:40,190
that explains our monetary system call

1201
00:52:46,809 --> 00:52:43,640
for your copy 800 686 to 237 it's time

1202
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:46,819
to understand the system call 866 to 237

1203
00:52:59,499 --> 00:52:56,739
welcome back to the pair cast the gold

1204
00:53:08,960 --> 00:52:59,509
standard of paranormal radio and now

1205
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:12,270
the co-host is Nick Redfern joining us

1206
00:53:17,460 --> 00:53:14,410
this week we have Mark Pilkington offer

1207
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:17,470
at Mirage men and we're discussing UFOs

1208
00:53:22,230 --> 00:53:20,290
and disinformation because that seems to

1209
00:53:25,350 --> 00:53:22,240
be such a big factor of what's happening

1210
00:53:27,420 --> 00:53:25,360
in the UFO field gene Steinberg were in

1211
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:27,430
the power cast altogether trying to

1212
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:29,770
figure it out find the signal from the

1213
00:53:34,530 --> 00:53:32,290
noise and that's an important part here

1214
00:53:36,780 --> 00:53:34,540
of one of our mottos for the power cast

1215
00:53:38,670 --> 00:53:36,790
is separating signal from noise and a

1216
00:53:41,420 --> 00:53:38,680
lot of this is noise so how do we find

1217
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:41,430
the real UFOs from an espionage the

1218
00:53:45,450 --> 00:53:43,810
psychological warfare all these crazy

1219
00:53:48,300 --> 00:53:45,460
games where do we find the real stuff

1220
00:53:50,580 --> 00:53:48,310
that's the 50 billion dollar questions

1221
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:50,590
and I think you know one of the really

1222
00:53:55,590 --> 00:53:53,050
one of the purposes of all the

1223
00:53:58,740 --> 00:53:55,600
disinformation that is pumped into the

1224
00:54:00,720 --> 00:53:58,750
field both I think by the various

1225
00:54:03,390 --> 00:54:00,730
military and intelligence organizations

1226
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:03,400
over the years and and perhaps

1227
00:54:07,860 --> 00:54:05,050
unwittingly or perhaps occasionally

1228
00:54:10,410 --> 00:54:07,870
deliberately by people within the UFO

1229
00:54:13,860 --> 00:54:10,420
community itself is is to create I think

1230
00:54:15,870 --> 00:54:13,870
this kind of fog of confusion so that

1231
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:15,880
picking the signal from the noise just

1232
00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:19,570
becomes incredibly difficult and one of

1233
00:54:24,330 --> 00:54:21,310
the things I have one of those

1234
00:54:26,730 --> 00:54:24,340
historical and stories I found that sort

1235
00:54:32,370 --> 00:54:26,740
related might be to this was back in the

1236
00:54:34,970 --> 00:54:32,380
early 50s when radio signals from Russia

1237
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:34,980
were being picked up by overflight by

1238
00:54:41,900 --> 00:54:38,650
aircraft and and later by satellites

1239
00:54:47,460 --> 00:54:41,910
each small town would actually have

1240
00:54:50,490 --> 00:54:47,470
teams of people hired to kind of make

1241
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:50,500
noise through through transmitters and

1242
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:53,650
so they'd have what whistles and pipes

1243
00:54:59,670 --> 00:54:56,290
and ratchets and horns and use their

1244
00:55:01,410 --> 00:54:59,680
voices and the idea was to just drown

1245
00:55:04,740 --> 00:55:01,420
out any other signals that were being

1246
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:04,750
either picked up by transmission so

1247
00:55:11,940 --> 00:55:09,010
being broadcast by radio transmitters

1248
00:55:15,060 --> 00:55:11,950
from from Europe or by old four could be

1249
00:55:17,490 --> 00:55:15,070
picked up by receivers from Europe as

1250
00:55:18,500 --> 00:55:17,500
well so this idea for generating noise

1251
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:18,510
too

1252
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:21,930
confuse the signals is intrinsic to the

1253
00:55:26,210 --> 00:55:24,450
role of disinformation that's really

1254
00:55:27,230 --> 00:55:26,220
what that sort of one is what this

1255
00:55:29,150 --> 00:55:27,240
information is

1256
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:29,160
that's what it says and I think yes oh

1257
00:55:33,050 --> 00:55:31,050
that's that you know that's that's

1258
00:55:36,740 --> 00:55:33,060
really the key and what with the book

1259
00:55:39,110 --> 00:55:36,750
what I really wanted to what I really

1260
00:55:41,690 --> 00:55:39,120
wanted to try to do is pick up the

1261
00:55:45,110 --> 00:55:41,700
threads as the signal so that we can

1262
00:55:48,470 --> 00:55:45,120
whittle away the noise and and the

1263
00:55:54,860 --> 00:55:48,480
distraction and you know the fighting

1264
00:55:57,770 --> 00:55:54,870
and the arguing and and the kind of chat

1265
00:56:00,170 --> 00:55:57,780
and and try to kind of get down to the

1266
00:56:02,060 --> 00:56:00,180
real phenomenon that's us and try to

1267
00:56:06,050 --> 00:56:02,070
make sense of that and it's quite

1268
00:56:07,610 --> 00:56:06,060
amazing as as Rick Doty you know said

1269
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:07,620
that's I'm talking about

1270
00:56:11,810 --> 00:56:10,050
and his involvement with all men oh it's

1271
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:11,820
you you really don't need to do very

1272
00:56:17,630 --> 00:56:14,370
much to create a lot of noise and within

1273
00:56:19,550 --> 00:56:17,640
the UFO field and I think a lot of the

1274
00:56:21,500 --> 00:56:19,560
work that the Air Force Office of

1275
00:56:24,710 --> 00:56:21,510
Special Investigations and the Special

1276
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:24,720
Projects teams in the 80s were doing was

1277
00:56:29,060 --> 00:56:26,850
just you know dropping little tip that

1278
00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:29,070
serves data and information into the

1279
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:30,960
pool and seeing them team and

1280
00:56:36,620 --> 00:56:33,690
multiplying like like things under a

1281
00:56:39,380 --> 00:56:36,630
microscope to misquote SQL for the

1282
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:39,390
beginning eventually well of the world

1283
00:56:44,540 --> 00:56:41,730
okay well I think I'm interested in

1284
00:56:46,670 --> 00:56:44,550
Richard Doty because we tried a couple

1285
00:56:49,370 --> 00:56:46,680
of times early on in the history of the

1286
00:56:50,450 --> 00:56:49,380
power cast to get the guy on because it

1287
00:56:52,730 --> 00:56:50,460
seemed like you have a lot of

1288
00:56:55,220 --> 00:56:52,740
interesting stories to tell but having

1289
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:55,230
spent time with him is he someone who

1290
00:56:58,550 --> 00:56:57,090
actually worked with the official

1291
00:57:01,550 --> 00:56:58,560
sanction of the government to provide

1292
00:57:07,100 --> 00:57:01,560
UFO disinformation or as he as they say

1293
00:57:08,890 --> 00:57:07,110
an independent actor I would say my

1294
00:57:12,410 --> 00:57:08,900
sense is that some of what he did was

1295
00:57:14,420 --> 00:57:12,420
unquestionably part of his role was you

1296
00:57:18,940 --> 00:57:14,430
know he was employed to do that and I

1297
00:57:22,190 --> 00:57:18,950
think he certainly was tasked with

1298
00:57:25,580 --> 00:57:22,200
talking to people like Paul bennewitz

1299
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:25,590
certainly and Bill Moore it's possible

1300
00:57:31,970 --> 00:57:29,970
that other times he drifted out as out

1301
00:57:35,750 --> 00:57:31,980
of a theme and so

1302
00:57:38,030 --> 00:57:35,760
conducted his own operations I don't

1303
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:38,040
know I can't speculate on that I can

1304
00:57:43,550 --> 00:57:39,570
speculate that I can't handle certain

1305
00:57:46,490 --> 00:57:43,560
that and certainly his work with ferrets

1306
00:57:50,180 --> 00:57:46,500
and I would I would guess later with

1307
00:57:53,359 --> 00:57:50,190
Linda Moulton Howe was you know was was

1308
00:57:56,570 --> 00:57:53,369
officially sanctioned and and in the

1309
00:58:00,380 --> 00:57:56,580
book I to try to trace that chain of

1310
00:58:03,590 --> 00:58:00,390
command up via his superior Carol

1311
00:58:06,430 --> 00:58:03,600
Richard Weaver and then up to Barry

1312
00:58:12,950 --> 00:58:06,440
Hennessy who headed Special Projects and

1313
00:58:15,470 --> 00:58:12,960
the server responsible for the PJ PJ

1314
00:58:17,390 --> 00:58:15,480
with special projects and he was one of

1315
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:17,400
his roles was to protect kind of new

1316
00:58:21,530 --> 00:58:19,680
technologies and new air force

1317
00:58:25,190 --> 00:58:21,540
development so I think one thing that's

1318
00:58:29,030 --> 00:58:25,200
interesting if you kind of slice the

1319
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:29,040
timeline of the Benowitz affair and and

1320
00:58:33,830 --> 00:58:32,010
the kind of real focus on pumping this

1321
00:58:36,770 --> 00:58:33,840
information into the UFO community and

1322
00:58:38,660 --> 00:58:36,780
the development of the stealth program

1323
00:58:41,300 --> 00:58:38,670
as their kind that there's you know

1324
00:58:45,010 --> 00:58:41,310
pretty close match so I suspect that was

1325
00:58:48,890 --> 00:58:45,020
really what was that the main focus as

1326
00:58:51,740 --> 00:58:48,900
as this program was to mask the self

1327
00:58:53,690 --> 00:58:51,750
program what about this project Cyril

1328
00:58:56,450 --> 00:58:53,700
episode that came where recently is that

1329
00:59:00,800 --> 00:58:56,460
one of Dodie's shenanigans or what well

1330
00:59:03,050 --> 00:59:00,810
um week nobody at this point is what now

1331
00:59:06,590 --> 00:59:03,060
five years down the line I don't think

1332
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:06,600
anyone really clearly knows them what

1333
00:59:10,730 --> 00:59:08,730
really what exactly was going on with

1334
00:59:14,330 --> 00:59:10,740
the surface story which as a friend

1335
00:59:15,950 --> 00:59:14,340
pointed out to me recently is an anagram

1336
00:59:21,590 --> 00:59:15,960
of prose which I thought was pointless

1337
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:21,600
and that certainly does he was involved

1338
00:59:32,690 --> 00:59:27,450
at some level with promoting the Soto

1339
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:32,700
material and certainly he was kind of

1340
00:59:39,430 --> 00:59:36,330
chaperoning bill Ryan to some extent at

1341
00:59:43,460 --> 00:59:39,440
the last one UFO conference in 2006 when

1342
00:59:45,270 --> 00:59:43,470
Bill was the kind of keynote speaker and

1343
00:59:48,450 --> 00:59:45,280
was talking about the surface

1344
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:48,460
a material and it was still who had kind

1345
00:59:55,410 --> 00:59:50,530
of taken on the mantle of being the

1346
00:59:59,730 --> 00:59:55,420
mouthpiece of serpo in late 2005 and

1347
01:00:03,420 --> 00:59:59,740
early 2006 Henrik was taking certainly

1348
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:03,430
taking a very keen interest in in bill

1349
01:00:14,370 --> 01:00:07,690
and and to what he had to say and later

1350
01:00:17,070 --> 01:00:14,380
on the British investigator and uncle

1351
01:00:19,620 --> 01:00:17,080
Stephen Broadbent who runs the reality

1352
01:00:22,070 --> 01:00:19,630
uncovered site he actually saw penny

1353
01:00:25,710 --> 01:00:22,080
penny accidentally was able to

1354
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:25,720
demonstrate that though he had used

1355
01:00:31,050 --> 01:00:29,050
mouthful for females to promote the

1356
01:00:35,070 --> 01:00:31,060
surface Torian to each one would

1357
01:00:40,110 --> 01:00:35,080
separate the accounts of the previous

1358
01:00:43,190 --> 01:00:40,120
one and just while it doesn't prove that

1359
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:43,200
Rick was behind it it certainly

1360
01:00:47,580 --> 01:00:45,490
demonstrates that he was involved with

1361
01:00:50,850 --> 01:00:47,590
the story I don't think that any one

1362
01:00:53,370 --> 01:00:50,860
person and certainly not Rick would be

1363
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:53,380
capable of generating all the photo

1364
01:00:58,050 --> 01:00:55,810
material by themselves and in a short

1365
01:01:01,080 --> 01:00:58,060
period of time those just mountains and

1366
01:01:05,130 --> 01:01:01,090
mountains and tens of thousands of words

1367
01:01:09,990 --> 01:01:05,140
of material but I I think it's it's

1368
01:01:13,230 --> 01:01:10,000
quite quite possible certainly that Rick

1369
01:01:16,590 --> 01:01:13,240
had had a role to play in that in that

1370
01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:16,600
story but Rick always denied it and you

1371
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:19,510
know we have to we have to we can't take

1372
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:21,610
it any further than that I wonder if if

1373
01:01:26,220 --> 01:01:24,010
at some point we'll hear the full story

1374
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:26,230
but I think looking if you look at the

1375
01:01:31,290 --> 01:01:28,690
sort of material for what it is which is

1376
01:01:33,210 --> 01:01:31,300
you know a piece of text then there's

1377
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:33,220
nothing in there that somebody who was

1378
01:01:38,550 --> 01:01:36,730
well versed in the UFO story in UFO

1379
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:38,560
culture in UFO history couldn't piece

1380
01:01:45,300 --> 01:01:42,690
together for themselves and you know the

1381
01:01:47,580 --> 01:01:45,310
sciences is apparently I'm not a

1382
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:47,590
astronomer but the Astronomy was quite

1383
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:50,770
hokey and yeah there was certainly some

1384
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:53,410
some rough edges to what was put out

1385
01:01:58,590 --> 01:01:56,410
there I couldn't help noticing that the

1386
01:02:00,810 --> 01:01:58,600
dates that the servo noughts which was

1387
01:02:04,530 --> 01:02:00,820
name given to the Air Force personnel

1388
01:02:07,170 --> 01:02:04,540
who were going to be sent out who were

1389
01:02:09,870 --> 01:02:07,180
sent out to the pilots I knew their

1390
01:02:11,670 --> 01:02:09,880
return date was was actually coincided

1391
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:11,680
with the release of Close Encounters of

1392
01:02:15,630 --> 01:02:13,570
the Third Kind in at and the end of

1393
01:02:18,810 --> 01:02:15,640
close encounter that their kind Steven

1394
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:18,820
Spielberg's excellent of him through the

1395
01:02:23,490 --> 01:02:22,090
UFO story okay well we're getting to

1396
01:02:27,780 --> 01:02:23,500
that in the next section but maybe

1397
01:02:30,570 --> 01:02:27,790
that's kind of an inside joke see sure

1398
01:02:34,460 --> 01:02:30,580
we have mark Pilkington author of Miraj

1399
01:02:38,790 --> 01:02:34,470
men an adventure into paranoia espionage

1400
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:38,800
psychological warfare and UFOs marco

1401
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:40,570
host is Nick Redfern I'm gene

1402
01:02:59,100 --> 01:02:52,570
steinberger in is there a secret UFO

1403
01:03:01,910 --> 01:02:59,110
agenda do strange creatures is there

1404
01:03:05,580 --> 01:03:01,920
evidence for mind-control time travel or

1405
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:05,590
devious government conspiracies find out

1406
01:03:10,650 --> 01:03:07,210
the inside scoop on the latest

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01:03:12,930 --> 01:03:10,660
conspiracies paranormal activity and a14

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phenomena when you subscribe to tim

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Beckley's conspiracy girl it's

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jam-packed with stories special book and

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DVD promotions and the best news it's

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01:03:42,540 --> 01:03:36,970
dude mister UFO at web TV dotnet that's

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01:03:48,430 --> 01:03:42,550
mr. UFO at web TV dotnet find out what

1418
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:51,109
today Jim newcomer fremitus resources

1419
01:03:55,309 --> 01:03:53,520
September 24 2010 coal opened this

1420
01:03:57,020 --> 01:03:55,319
morning at twelve ninety nine seventy a

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one ounce gold coin to be purchased for

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thirteen thirty three eighty five 666

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ninety three for a half ounce or three

1424
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thirty three 46 for a quarter ounce

1425
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that's thirteen thirty three eighty five

1426
01:04:09,950 --> 01:04:07,349
666 ninety three or three thirty three

1427
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40 ships again the Congressional Budget

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Office sounds the alarm warning of

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greek-style US debt crisis CBO is

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drawing a parallel between US economy

1431
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and the Greek economic meltdown debt to

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GDP climbing to an unfamiliar territory

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01:04:25,220 --> 01:04:23,010
and deficits rising to unsupportable

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levels high ten Anderson the federal

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debt and risk of financial crises

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read for every American

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rates spells economic disaster call

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excess food that you grow freezing or

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canning may have been the process you've

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great talk-radio search no more it's

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sent it to news at the para cast com

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01:07:16,690 --> 01:07:14,660
that's news at the podcast comm and if

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01:07:18,010 --> 01:07:16,700
you want to catch up on past episodes we

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01:07:29,980 --> 01:07:24,440
that's the para cast comm or check us

1499
01:07:32,859 --> 01:07:29,990
out on iTunes we have mark Pilkington

1500
01:07:35,710 --> 01:07:32,869
author of Mirage men Nick Redfern is the

1501
01:07:38,020 --> 01:07:35,720
co-host who says it loud I'm Jean

1502
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:38,030
Steinberg during the power cast Nick

1503
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:39,770
pick up on the questioning please yeah I

1504
01:07:43,870 --> 01:07:41,930
mean one of the area's mark but I'm

1505
01:07:45,579 --> 01:07:43,880
really particularly interesting that you

1506
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:45,589
delved into quite deeply and hopefully

1507
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:47,450
you can talk about the people you

1508
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:49,010
interviewed in your theories and

1509
01:07:53,829 --> 01:07:51,410
conclusions was relative to cattle

1510
01:07:55,870 --> 01:07:53,839
mutilations now of course like certain

1511
01:07:57,849 --> 01:07:55,880
aspects of the UFO phenomena and this

1512
01:08:01,120 --> 01:07:57,859
has been linked as much with UFOs as he

1513
01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:01,130
has with you know military tests and

1514
01:08:05,140 --> 01:08:03,290
biological warfare I just wondered you

1515
01:08:07,569 --> 01:08:05,150
know how you kind of stand on this issue

1516
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:07,579
based on how you've spoken to and the

1517
01:08:13,210 --> 01:08:09,650
kind of conclusions you've reached John

1518
01:08:15,579 --> 01:08:13,220
and I spoke to on two occasions that's

1519
01:08:17,740 --> 01:08:15,589
where we met gave the Baldur to thanks

1520
01:08:21,610 --> 01:08:17,750
to Greg bishops who who introduced us to

1521
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:21,620
him and Gabe was has I think his state

1522
01:08:26,499 --> 01:08:24,170
troopers are not so sure who's a state

1523
01:08:30,370 --> 01:08:26,509
trooper around Dulce in the mid

1524
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:30,380
seventies and became so quite embroiled

1525
01:08:38,380 --> 01:08:33,850
in the sort of ongoing series of

1526
01:08:41,559 --> 01:08:38,390
apparent calculations at that time and

1527
01:08:44,559 --> 01:08:41,569
Gabe was was you know absolutely

1528
01:08:48,430 --> 01:08:44,569
convinced that there was some kind of

1529
01:08:51,939 --> 01:08:48,440
covert operation going on that involved

1530
01:08:55,419 --> 01:08:51,949
tagging careful with ultraviolet paint

1531
01:08:58,059 --> 01:08:55,429
then perhaps flying over the area with

1532
01:09:00,760 --> 01:08:58,069
some kind of aircraft and and to our

1533
01:09:02,919 --> 01:09:00,770
surprise Gabe described two sets of

1534
01:09:05,620 --> 01:09:02,929
aircraft one was helicopters and one

1535
01:09:07,959 --> 01:09:05,630
were what he said with some kind of so

1536
01:09:11,470 --> 01:09:07,969
strange perhaps flying saucers style

1537
01:09:13,510 --> 01:09:11,480
craft but but flying over the area

1538
01:09:14,530 --> 01:09:13,520
probably with a helicopter picking out

1539
01:09:16,990 --> 01:09:14,540
the marks

1540
01:09:20,200 --> 01:09:17,000
cattle and holding the

1541
01:09:22,900 --> 01:09:20,210
probably up onto the top of the ark a

1542
01:09:26,710 --> 01:09:22,910
later Mesa outside Dulce New Mexico

1543
01:09:30,749 --> 01:09:26,720
where they had a laboratory to sort of

1544
01:09:33,910 --> 01:09:30,759
operate on them and and one of the

1545
01:09:35,980 --> 01:09:33,920
interesting things when I first started

1546
01:09:38,320 --> 01:09:35,990
the interest I spoke to a friend of mine

1547
01:09:40,900 --> 01:09:38,330
who worked for the UK Food Standards

1548
01:09:43,210 --> 01:09:40,910
Agency and I was telling him about the

1549
01:09:47,499 --> 01:09:43,220
fact that the parts of the animal that

1550
01:09:50,380 --> 01:09:47,509
were removed so that the tundle it over

1551
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:50,390
the sexual organs and the anus he

1552
01:09:54,610 --> 01:09:51,890
immediately said oh well that's what

1553
01:09:59,080 --> 01:09:54,620
you'd take out if you were looking for

1554
01:10:04,900 --> 01:09:59,090
some kind of transmission of a virus or

1555
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:04,910
or some kind of poisoning or erosive

1556
01:10:09,820 --> 01:10:07,370
infection and those were parts that

1557
01:10:13,390 --> 01:10:09,830
aren't I'll din to the machines of the

1558
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:13,400
food chain so it does so suggest it

1559
01:10:21,550 --> 01:10:17,930
suggested to me some kind of food

1560
01:10:23,410 --> 01:10:21,560
research project and and so they I'm not

1561
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:23,420
the only person to have said this I

1562
01:10:28,570 --> 01:10:26,690
think guy called Ted Oliphant I remember

1563
01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:28,580
some years ago writing about this

1564
01:10:32,950 --> 01:10:30,490
researching it and more recently Colm

1565
01:10:35,770 --> 01:10:32,960
Kelleher and a really interesting book

1566
01:10:38,170 --> 01:10:35,780
called brains trust which talks about

1567
01:10:41,020 --> 01:10:38,180
the possibility that this what was being

1568
01:10:44,620 --> 01:10:41,030
monitored was the spread of Priam's

1569
01:10:47,530 --> 01:10:44,630
involved in passing on what appears in

1570
01:10:50,590 --> 01:10:47,540
humans has quite felt Jakob disease mad

1571
01:10:53,590 --> 01:10:50,600
cow disease and and another possibility

1572
01:10:55,440 --> 01:10:53,600
is said that it was looking I think in

1573
01:11:02,340 --> 01:10:55,450
other possibilities it was looking at

1574
01:11:05,710 --> 01:11:02,350
radiation seepage from a project to use

1575
01:11:08,830 --> 01:11:05,720
an atomic blast to kind of call out

1576
01:11:11,410 --> 01:11:08,840
natural gas from from the area called

1577
01:11:14,260 --> 01:11:11,420
project gas value from the late sixties

1578
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:14,270
and actually this sort of backfired and

1579
01:11:18,940 --> 01:11:16,610
all it did was contaminate the

1580
01:11:21,070 --> 01:11:18,950
groundwater in the area with radiation

1581
01:11:24,730 --> 01:11:21,080
and is another possibility that this is

1582
01:11:27,250 --> 01:11:24,740
what the research was being was was

1583
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:27,260
being conducted into now one thing that

1584
01:11:30,459 --> 01:11:28,970
I'm surprised no one's really picked up

1585
01:11:32,890 --> 01:11:30,469
on in the book which has

1586
01:11:38,650 --> 01:11:32,900
surprised and too pleased to discover

1587
01:11:40,630 --> 01:11:38,660
was the legendary technological war of

1588
01:11:45,310 --> 01:11:40,640
the confer sea world the silent

1589
01:11:48,370 --> 01:11:45,320
helicopter which was always so fingered

1590
01:11:50,979 --> 01:11:48,380
as being involved in cosmos our council

1591
01:11:53,020 --> 01:11:50,989
mutilation operations all over the u.s.

1592
01:11:54,910 --> 01:11:53,030
throughout the seventies and through the

1593
01:11:58,120 --> 01:11:54,920
80s and to the present day

1594
01:12:00,459 --> 01:11:58,130
is is not a mist as a real aircraft and

1595
01:12:04,930 --> 01:12:00,469
was one that was developed in the late

1596
01:12:07,060 --> 01:12:04,940
60s and then flown by the CIA on to

1597
01:12:10,180 --> 01:12:07,070
missions in Vietnam and it was called

1598
01:12:13,030 --> 01:12:10,190
the huge 500 P and P stood for

1599
01:12:16,930 --> 01:12:13,040
penetrator and people on the ground who

1600
01:12:18,550 --> 01:12:16,940
heard this thing and saw it flying over

1601
01:12:20,950 --> 01:12:18,560
the heads so they were very unnerving

1602
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:20,960
experience because you'd see this thing

1603
01:12:26,260 --> 01:12:23,449
flying part that all you would hear is

1604
01:12:28,959 --> 01:12:26,270
the sound of an aircraft very far in the

1605
01:12:31,660 --> 01:12:28,969
distance and it was a real kind of

1606
01:12:34,209 --> 01:12:31,670
disjunction a moment of real so

1607
01:12:36,220 --> 01:12:34,219
cognitive dysfunction where you could

1608
01:12:38,170 --> 01:12:36,230
see something and you knew what you

1609
01:12:41,770 --> 01:12:38,180
should hear but you you can hear it and

1610
01:12:43,959 --> 01:12:41,780
I was intrigued that Gabe Aldous

1611
01:12:47,979 --> 01:12:43,969
described one night when he and his team

1612
01:12:49,530 --> 01:12:47,989
were out sort of smoothing trying to see

1613
01:12:52,450 --> 01:12:49,540
the news later than action they

1614
01:12:55,030 --> 01:12:52,460
described a well lit kind of aircraft

1615
01:12:57,939 --> 01:12:55,040
flying over their heads making a Putt

1616
01:13:00,280 --> 01:12:57,949
Putt Putt sound and it was a there was a

1617
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:00,290
ring of circular lights shining down it

1618
01:13:04,470 --> 01:13:02,690
and that was all they could see and I

1619
01:13:07,900 --> 01:13:04,480
wondered if this was indeed one of the

1620
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:07,910
hues penetrators of being deployed in

1621
01:13:12,550 --> 01:13:10,130
this area as interesting people who have

1622
01:13:15,370 --> 01:13:12,560
tried to follow the paper trail for the

1623
01:13:18,100 --> 01:13:15,380
so these helicopters they were deployed

1624
01:13:21,100 --> 01:13:18,110
into Vietnam I think it was 1970 that

1625
01:13:23,290 --> 01:13:21,110
they threw two missed missions and one

1626
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:23,300
of them crashed and they're so test

1627
01:13:28,420 --> 01:13:25,730
flight and the other was flown back to

1628
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:28,430
Edwards Air Force Base and I think 1971

1629
01:13:34,120 --> 01:13:31,130
or perhaps 1972 and then to have

1630
01:13:36,540 --> 01:13:34,130
disappeared underground but it's quite

1631
01:13:39,419 --> 01:13:36,550
possible I would suggest that they

1632
01:13:42,220 --> 01:13:39,429
reappeared so later in the 1970s

1633
01:13:43,810 --> 01:13:42,230
involved with whatever was going on

1634
01:13:46,170 --> 01:13:43,820
around Dulce New Mexico

1635
01:13:50,530 --> 01:13:46,180
elsewhere as part of this very puzzling

1636
01:13:52,900 --> 01:13:50,540
cattle mutilation phenomenon but one

1637
01:13:55,270 --> 01:13:52,910
thing I would say a word of caution is I

1638
01:13:57,490 --> 01:13:55,280
would say is that once you know stories

1639
01:13:59,200 --> 01:13:57,500
did start spreading about the cattle

1640
01:14:00,760 --> 01:13:59,210
mutilations and within the ranching

1641
01:14:03,100 --> 01:14:00,770
community I think you know I would

1642
01:14:06,340 --> 01:14:03,110
imagine that there was a lot of fear and

1643
01:14:08,530 --> 01:14:06,350
panic and I would guess I should state

1644
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:08,540
that a lot of what was reported as

1645
01:14:13,180 --> 01:14:10,970
cattle mutilations probably you know

1646
01:14:14,950 --> 01:14:13,190
quite likely as vet and animal

1647
01:14:18,480 --> 01:14:14,960
pathologists at the time Terry Laughlin

1648
01:14:21,550 --> 01:14:18,490
probably were mundane animal animal

1649
01:14:24,040 --> 01:14:21,560
attacks or predator attacks and that in

1650
01:14:27,790 --> 01:14:24,050
the climate of fear were kind of misread

1651
01:14:29,290 --> 01:14:27,800
as as the mutilations that we know about

1652
01:14:31,150 --> 01:14:29,300
okay well that raises a big question

1653
01:14:33,480 --> 01:14:31,160
here which maybe we will start exploring

1654
01:14:36,310 --> 01:14:33,490
also in the next section which is the

1655
01:14:37,990 --> 01:14:36,320
motivations behind disinformation we

1656
01:14:40,660 --> 01:14:38,000
want people to believe there are hybrid

1657
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:40,670
aliens we want people to believe perhaps

1658
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:43,370
there were mj-12 documents back in the

1659
01:14:47,920 --> 01:14:46,850
1980s Dulce New Mexico all this stuff to

1660
01:14:50,350 --> 01:14:47,930
what end

1661
01:14:52,930 --> 01:14:50,360
is there an endgame why do they play

1662
01:14:55,030 --> 01:14:52,940
these pranks I think there are multiple

1663
01:14:58,930 --> 01:14:55,040
reasons and the reasons change over time

1664
01:15:01,480 --> 01:14:58,940
and and are sort of dependent on the

1665
01:15:03,580 --> 01:15:01,490
particular operation that's at hand so I

1666
01:15:06,670 --> 01:15:03,590
think when it's expedient to do so they

1667
01:15:09,010 --> 01:15:06,680
lure UFOs out of the dressing up box and

1668
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:09,020
other times they'll use you know all

1669
01:15:14,650 --> 01:15:11,930
sorts of other rare folkloric and

1670
01:15:16,420 --> 01:15:14,660
supernatural creatures as I talked about

1671
01:15:17,770 --> 01:15:16,430
in the book we can talk about back up

1672
01:15:19,870 --> 01:15:17,780
the brakes and a quick reminder

1673
01:15:22,570 --> 01:15:19,880
neighbors next week on the power cast

1674
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:22,580
Nick Redfern returns as a guest to talk

1675
01:15:26,770 --> 01:15:24,890
about his new book final events the

1676
01:15:29,620 --> 01:15:26,780
co-hosts will be Chris O'Brien but that

1677
01:15:32,530 --> 01:15:29,630
is then this is now we'll look into the

1678
01:15:34,480 --> 01:15:32,540
psychological warfare toolbox in our

1679
01:15:36,820 --> 01:15:34,490
next segment with Mark Pilkington author

1680
01:15:46,270 --> 01:15:36,830
of Miraj men the co-host is Nicholas

1681
01:15:52,540 --> 01:15:49,170
[Music]

1682
01:15:55,270 --> 01:15:52,550
Ray Perkins a reclusive veteran burned

1683
01:15:57,540 --> 01:15:55,280
out from the Gulf War lives tortured by

1684
01:15:59,920 --> 01:15:57,550
relentless perplexing nightmares

1685
01:16:01,840 --> 01:15:59,930
nightmares of a horrific battle in deep

1686
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:01,850
space and of a mysterious woman

1687
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:04,130
suffering an agony for her devastated

1688
01:16:11,130 --> 01:16:07,250
world a woman not yet born calling

1689
01:16:13,780 --> 01:16:11,140
across centuries to him then a

1690
01:16:17,050 --> 01:16:13,790
coincidence leads him to his destiny his

1691
01:16:19,630 --> 01:16:17,060
chance to alter the universe attack of

1692
01:16:21,490 --> 01:16:19,640
the rocket the former fiction editor for

1693
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Star Wars and Indiana Jones Robert

1694
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Simpson writes the soul of the novel

1695
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attack of the Rockets lies in its heart

1696
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1697
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tale of a love that spans the galaxy a

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thrilling story attack of the rocket is

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1730
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there are all sorts of things on the

1731
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market designed to keep you safe when

1732
01:17:56,320 --> 01:17:54,440
you're out and about whistles mace you

1733
01:17:58,120 --> 01:17:56,330
name it but for real peace of mind for

1734
01:17:59,560 --> 01:17:58,130
parents students and children you need

1735
01:18:02,080 --> 01:17:59,570
an eye safe bag

1736
01:18:04,870 --> 01:18:02,090
we heard a loud noise and I could see a

1737
01:18:06,790 --> 01:18:04,880
flashing in the backpack the sound was

1738
01:18:08,650 --> 01:18:06,800
different than a car alarm so it was a

1739
01:18:10,300 --> 01:18:08,660
different sound so we looked to see what

1740
01:18:12,610 --> 01:18:10,310
it was I think it's a great idea

1741
01:18:14,890 --> 01:18:12,620
introducing the isafe bag a backpack

1742
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:14,900
that looks normal until you pull the pin

1743
01:18:19,180 --> 01:18:17,570
I say bag emits two powerful sirens and

1744
01:18:20,980 --> 01:18:19,190
a high intensity strobe lights Amal

1745
01:18:23,020 --> 01:18:20,990
taneous Li to attract immediate help

1746
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:23,030
having the isafe bag gives me a feeling

1747
01:18:27,160 --> 01:18:24,890
of being safe because I know when I pull

1748
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:27,170
the alarm people will hear and they'll

1749
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come and help me for mobile personal

1750
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security get the I safe bag and I safe

1751
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bags calm that's the letter I sa Fe bags

1752
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calm i safe bags calm I think God that

1753
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:40,460
she had that backpack and she had enough

1754
01:18:43,870 --> 01:18:42,170
sense to use it it's like having a

1755
01:18:45,730 --> 01:18:43,880
bodyguard with you all the time the I

1756
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safe bag the patented bag with a

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built-in alarm available at I safe bags

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1761
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1762
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book included with every still is all

1764
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you need to beat the high cost of gas

1765
01:19:08,770 --> 01:19:06,710
and stop dependence on foreign oil find

1766
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:08,780
out how easy it is to legally make your

1767
01:19:15,700 --> 01:19:12,410
own alcohol fuel at our Evie and oh-ho

1768
01:19:19,030 --> 01:19:15,710
are calm or call 503 six six two four

1769
01:19:21,580 --> 01:19:19,040
173 revenuer calm fine quality alcohol

1770
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:21,590
stills did somebody say stills

1771
01:19:26,230 --> 01:19:23,690
that's how grand Pappy made his own sour

1772
01:19:28,420 --> 01:19:26,240
mash and you can to revenuer stills can

1773
01:19:30,670 --> 01:19:28,430
be used to make Brandy's liquors whiskey

1774
01:19:32,530 --> 01:19:30,680
vodka and more all perfectly legal with

1775
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a permit you should check into having

1776
01:19:40,090 --> 01:19:34,550
your own revenue are still at revenue

1777
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calm that's Ari ven oor calm or call 503

1778
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662 for 173 one-year warranty on all

1779
01:19:52,090 --> 01:19:46,550
stills from revenue comm find quality

1780
01:19:53,740 --> 01:19:52,100
alcohol stills the gcn radio network

1781
01:20:02,200 --> 01:19:53,750
providing the world with hard-hitting

1782
01:20:05,350 --> 01:20:02,210
talk radio vcn hi this is Don Ecker and

1783
01:20:07,240 --> 01:20:05,360
you are tuned into the para cast let me

1784
01:20:09,970 --> 01:20:07,250
tell you what you're gonna hear stuff

1785
01:20:11,560 --> 01:20:09,980
here that you probably won't hear

1786
01:20:14,980 --> 01:20:11,570
anywhere else

1787
01:20:16,660 --> 01:20:14,990
hear that George snoring we have mark

1788
01:20:19,750 --> 01:20:16,670
Pilkington offer at Mirage men an

1789
01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:19,760
adventure into paranoia espionage

1790
01:20:24,430 --> 01:20:22,370
psychological warfare and UFOs the

1791
01:20:25,900 --> 01:20:24,440
co-hosts Nick Redfern I'm gene Steinberg

1792
01:20:28,480 --> 01:20:25,910
you're in the power cast and we're

1793
01:20:30,820 --> 01:20:28,490
looking at the motivations so one reason

1794
01:20:33,370 --> 01:20:30,830
maybe you would do this sort of thing

1795
01:20:35,740 --> 01:20:33,380
correct me if I'm wrong mark is to

1796
01:20:37,930 --> 01:20:35,750
divert your attention from something

1797
01:20:39,820 --> 01:20:37,940
that's really going on so you draw

1798
01:20:42,820 --> 01:20:39,830
attention to some kind of crazy wacky

1799
01:20:44,680 --> 01:20:42,830
event fate but they're doing something

1800
01:20:47,230 --> 01:20:44,690
else so is that what we're looking for

1801
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:47,240
what does something else might be yes I

1802
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:48,890
think I think largely that's a

1803
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:51,530
possibility outside classic stage

1804
01:20:56,110 --> 01:20:54,410
magicians trip to you know hold his

1805
01:20:58,390 --> 01:20:56,120
finger out in one direction everyone

1806
01:20:59,860 --> 01:20:58,400
look goes off to see what he's doing and

1807
01:21:02,860 --> 01:20:59,870
put the other Heath

1808
01:21:05,080 --> 01:21:02,870
I don't know so some stuffing a rabbit

1809
01:21:07,230 --> 01:21:05,090
under a table or whatever it would be

1810
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:07,240
yes so that kind of distraction

1811
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:10,250
certainly is part of it and if we go

1812
01:21:17,020 --> 01:21:13,370
back to the early nineteen by the mid

1813
01:21:18,940 --> 01:21:17,030
1950s mid to late 1950s and when for

1814
01:21:22,480 --> 01:21:18,950
Project Blue Book the official Air Force

1815
01:21:24,970 --> 01:21:22,490
investigation into the UFO phenomenon

1816
01:21:28,270 --> 01:21:24,980
was serve at its height and it's now so

1817
01:21:31,990 --> 01:21:28,280
well known that certain at certain times

1818
01:21:35,970 --> 01:21:32,000
certain instances the investigators for

1819
01:21:39,820 --> 01:21:35,980
Blue Book were doing was not looking at

1820
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:39,830
genuine leads of investigating people to

1821
01:21:45,430 --> 01:21:41,530
UFO sightings they were actually

1822
01:21:48,040 --> 01:21:45,440
monitoring the visibility of the newly

1823
01:21:51,400 --> 01:21:48,050
developed u2 aircraft as it flew over

1824
01:21:52,990 --> 01:21:51,410
built-up areas and there's a lot of

1825
01:21:57,490 --> 01:21:53,000
controversy about the statement which

1826
01:22:00,130 --> 01:21:57,500
occurred in a internal air CIA history

1827
01:22:03,130 --> 01:22:00,140
about UFOs by man called gerald haynes

1828
01:22:05,500 --> 01:22:03,140
but certainly on some occasions this was

1829
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:05,510
what was being done so the Air Force

1830
01:22:10,930 --> 01:22:09,050
personnel would turn up and meet mr. and

1831
01:22:13,270 --> 01:22:10,940
mrs. Johnson who would say yes we saw

1832
01:22:15,940 --> 01:22:13,280
this very strange thing grunting in the

1833
01:22:17,860 --> 01:22:15,950
sunlight moving in a straight line and

1834
01:22:20,230 --> 01:22:17,870
we really didn't know what it was and we

1835
01:22:22,090 --> 01:22:20,240
were worried it might be an alien craft

1836
01:22:24,550 --> 01:22:22,100
or it could be the Russians we just

1837
01:22:25,930 --> 01:22:24,560
don't know and the air source guys would

1838
01:22:29,350 --> 01:22:25,940
say don't worry

1839
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:29,360
mr. Johnson what you saw was the planet

1840
01:22:33,340 --> 01:22:30,890
Venus or it was Australia weather

1841
01:22:36,340 --> 01:22:33,350
balloon or it was you know nothing at

1842
01:22:38,290 --> 01:22:36,350
all just a note in your eye full well

1843
01:22:40,510 --> 01:22:38,300
knowing that actually what I'd seen was

1844
01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:40,520
was the u2 and this would be useful for

1845
01:22:43,870 --> 01:22:40,970
them

1846
01:22:46,420 --> 01:22:43,880
when considering you know how people

1847
01:22:48,820 --> 01:22:46,430
would how and whether people would see

1848
01:22:51,370 --> 01:22:48,830
the u2 as it flew over the Soviet Union

1849
01:22:53,020 --> 01:22:51,380
which is what it was tasked to do and

1850
01:22:56,230 --> 01:22:53,030
part of the reason with this was in its

1851
01:22:58,960 --> 01:22:56,240
first two years the u2 was actually as

1852
01:23:01,060 --> 01:22:58,970
most aircraft were painted a futuristic

1853
01:23:03,460 --> 01:23:01,070
well wasn't painted or with a futuristic

1854
01:23:07,150 --> 01:23:03,470
sand metallic shiny metallic silver

1855
01:23:09,130 --> 01:23:07,160
which at sunset and sunrise would would

1856
01:23:11,410 --> 01:23:09,140
catch the Sun and reflect very brightly

1857
01:23:15,870 --> 01:23:11,420
in draw attention to itself and later on

1858
01:23:19,810 --> 01:23:15,880
it would it was a more somber sober

1859
01:23:21,550 --> 01:23:19,820
gunmetal grey so that was one aspect was

1860
01:23:25,030 --> 01:23:21,560
sort of yes diverting attention from

1861
01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:25,040
your real real toys enjoy real

1862
01:23:30,550 --> 01:23:27,410
technologies and I think that certainly

1863
01:23:34,150 --> 01:23:30,560
also part of the benefit story was to

1864
01:23:37,780 --> 01:23:34,160
mask the stealth development of the

1865
01:23:39,670 --> 01:23:37,790
stealth program and to probably I would

1866
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:39,680
guess the point people out to places

1867
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:42,290
like Dulce New Mexico where Paul

1868
01:23:47,110 --> 01:23:44,090
bennewitz was encouraged to believe

1869
01:23:51,010 --> 01:23:47,120
there was a lot of UFO activity going on

1870
01:23:54,700 --> 01:23:51,020
and even an alien base while you know

1871
01:23:57,880 --> 01:23:54,710
the certainly by the early similarities

1872
01:24:00,670 --> 01:23:57,890
with test flights and of the stealth

1873
01:24:04,540 --> 01:24:00,680
fighter and later the bomber were going

1874
01:24:07,300 --> 01:24:04,550
on at type I error 51 and a Tonopah and

1875
01:24:09,100 --> 01:24:07,310
next door so yes it's a kind of and I

1876
01:24:11,380 --> 01:24:09,110
look over here look look in this

1877
01:24:13,810 --> 01:24:11,390
direction laser there's an amazing

1878
01:24:16,300 --> 01:24:13,820
underground alien base and ignore what's

1879
01:24:20,470 --> 01:24:16,310
going on over over in this direction

1880
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:20,480
where the yeah strange ungainly our head

1881
01:24:26,170 --> 01:24:23,770
shaped aircraft is coming into land and

1882
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:26,180
but there are there I think there are

1883
01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:27,650
multiple but you know there are many

1884
01:24:37,060 --> 01:24:30,650
other reasons I think one of them and if

1885
01:24:38,510 --> 01:24:37,070
we look at the CIA's over 1953 Robertson

1886
01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:38,520
panel where

1887
01:24:45,220 --> 01:24:41,970
they officially enter the u.s. our story

1888
01:24:49,430 --> 01:24:45,230
and they so talked about the issues that

1889
01:24:51,050 --> 01:24:49,440
the UFO kind of panic is raises and one

1890
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:51,060
of the things they talk about is the

1891
01:24:58,910 --> 01:24:53,850
need to monitor UFO groups and also to

1892
01:25:02,210 --> 01:24:58,920
sort of control them and to get the UFO

1893
01:25:04,340 --> 01:25:02,220
community serve into one place and to

1894
01:25:07,820 --> 01:25:04,350
get them some organized so that they're

1895
01:25:10,700 --> 01:25:07,830
easier to to watch there to keep pads on

1896
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:10,710
when you say that about being in the

1897
01:25:15,650 --> 01:25:13,530
business of watching over UFO groups can

1898
01:25:18,260 --> 01:25:15,660
we then become paranoid enough to say

1899
01:25:20,690 --> 01:25:18,270
that maybe one or more of the members or

1900
01:25:23,660 --> 01:25:20,700
people who are officers as some of these

1901
01:25:25,430 --> 01:25:23,670
UFO groups are really engaged in over

1902
01:25:29,930 --> 01:25:25,440
disinformation they're working for the

1903
01:25:32,150 --> 01:25:29,940
authorities it's the sort of statement

1904
01:25:37,330 --> 01:25:32,160
that's often bandied around I mean if

1905
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:37,340
you look back to my cat run headed by

1906
01:25:43,310 --> 01:25:41,010
sorry dental by major Donald Kehoe that

1907
01:25:45,620 --> 01:25:43,320
is Donald hi sorry I got distracted my

1908
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:45,630
screen turned off as I was thinking yes

1909
01:25:53,950 --> 01:25:49,610
major dialed Kehoe yeah we see a lot of

1910
01:25:58,340 --> 01:25:53,960
former CIA you have Rosco Helen Carter

1911
01:26:00,950 --> 01:25:58,350
who was an Navy man who then was was ran

1912
01:26:04,460 --> 01:26:00,960
the ESEA and then ended up very senior

1913
01:26:08,570 --> 01:26:04,470
in a nightcap and there there are others

1914
01:26:10,660 --> 01:26:08,580
in there as well and everyone who's the

1915
01:26:13,670 --> 01:26:10,670
new VC will said they were genuinely

1916
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:13,680
interested in the subject and in the

1917
01:26:19,100 --> 01:26:15,930
phenomenon but it's very hard to kind of

1918
01:26:21,590 --> 01:26:19,110
separate people's lifelong involvement

1919
01:26:24,230 --> 01:26:21,600
in in the intelligence and military

1920
01:26:27,490 --> 01:26:24,240
arena with you know with the fact that

1921
01:26:30,170 --> 01:26:27,500
just a few years before the CIA had been

1922
01:26:32,750 --> 01:26:30,180
telling its people to get involved in

1923
01:26:35,800 --> 01:26:32,760
the UFO field men UFO business and there

1924
01:26:38,390 --> 01:26:35,810
were obvious reasons listens for people

1925
01:26:42,650 --> 01:26:38,400
to the intelligence organizations to

1926
01:26:45,650 --> 01:26:42,660
send their send their kind of officers

1927
01:26:47,540 --> 01:26:45,660
into the field because you know often

1928
01:26:51,980 --> 01:26:47,550
it's often going to be the case that

1929
01:26:54,170 --> 01:26:51,990
what UFO Hunters and people looking for

1930
01:26:57,020 --> 01:26:54,180
the UFOs especially when they're

1931
01:27:00,650 --> 01:26:57,030
congregating around air force bases and

1932
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:00,660
and and areas where they're not supposed

1933
01:27:05,810 --> 01:27:03,210
to be it'd be very easy for agents of

1934
01:27:08,180 --> 01:27:05,820
unfriendly powers to kind of get

1935
01:27:10,160 --> 01:27:08,190
involved in this in these communities

1936
01:27:12,590 --> 01:27:10,170
and and pick up tit bits of information

1937
01:27:14,210 --> 01:27:12,600
that when peaceful other bits of

1938
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:14,220
information that perhaps the UFO

1939
01:27:18,860 --> 01:27:16,410
community doesn't have could reveal

1940
01:27:22,640 --> 01:27:18,870
quite a lot of technical intelligence

1941
01:27:26,030 --> 01:27:22,650
about new new weapon development

1942
01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:26,040
well the concerns of nycap that I had is

1943
01:27:33,350 --> 01:27:30,530
if you're going to have an organization

1944
01:27:34,700 --> 01:27:33,360
top-heavy with military people as they

1945
01:27:36,830 --> 01:27:34,710
were at least as far as the board was

1946
01:27:38,840 --> 01:27:36,840
concerned even Richard Hall was in I

1947
01:27:41,180 --> 01:27:38,850
think the Air Force or something before

1948
01:27:43,190 --> 01:27:41,190
he came into civilian life wouldn't that

1949
01:27:45,050 --> 01:27:43,200
be too obvious I mean how can you

1950
01:27:47,060 --> 01:27:45,060
believe that they would be so

1951
01:27:49,190 --> 01:27:47,070
transparent you look at nycap you say

1952
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:49,200
what's got be a military front because

1953
01:27:53,450 --> 01:27:50,970
he got major Donald Kehoe and all his

1954
01:27:56,290 --> 01:27:53,460
buddies from the Air Force from the CIA

1955
01:28:00,140 --> 01:27:56,300
from the Marines from the Navy etc etc

1956
01:28:02,750 --> 01:28:00,150
isn't that just too darn obvious yeah I

1957
01:28:06,440 --> 01:28:02,760
mean I could be a case of hiding in

1958
01:28:07,460 --> 01:28:06,450
plain sight or it could be I'm prepared

1959
01:28:10,580 --> 01:28:07,470
to give them the benefit of the doubt

1960
01:28:13,730 --> 01:28:10,590
and they like you say Kehoe you know

1961
01:28:16,370 --> 01:28:13,740
wanted nycap to be a serious

1962
01:28:19,640 --> 01:28:16,380
organization to be a serious for and it

1963
01:28:21,560 --> 01:28:19,650
would have made sense to him to call his

1964
01:28:24,620 --> 01:28:21,570
you know his his buddies and people he

1965
01:28:27,730 --> 01:28:24,630
knew who were serious players in you

1966
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:27,740
know in the military military

1967
01:28:32,210 --> 01:28:30,570
organizations to take part in it and the

1968
01:28:35,350 --> 01:28:32,220
other the other interesting character Bo

1969
01:28:38,330 --> 01:28:35,360
again given given the Robertson panel

1970
01:28:41,750 --> 01:28:38,340
conclusions you have Colonel Joseph

1971
01:28:43,640 --> 01:28:41,760
Brian who is actually the very first CIA

1972
01:28:48,080 --> 01:28:43,650
chief of political and psychological

1973
01:28:52,010 --> 01:28:48,090
warfare and he was a book for a while

1974
01:28:54,790 --> 01:28:52,020
anyway a senior player in my cat and

1975
01:28:57,740 --> 01:28:54,800
curiously enough actually his son was

1976
01:29:00,500 --> 01:28:57,750
CBD Brian who wrote Close Encounters of

1977
01:29:03,020 --> 01:29:00,510
the Fourth Kind about and the mid

1978
01:29:05,420 --> 01:29:03,030
nineties about the abduction story and

1979
01:29:07,300 --> 01:29:05,430
and he's actually got on the record

1980
01:29:10,010 --> 01:29:07,310
saying that his dad was just genuinely

1981
01:29:13,340 --> 01:29:10,020
fascinated with with the UFO historian

1982
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:13,350
and certainly wasn't involved on any

1983
01:29:18,050 --> 01:29:15,810
kind of professional level but as they

1984
01:29:20,780 --> 01:29:18,060
say once a sugilite a spook and there's

1985
01:29:22,820 --> 01:29:20,790
always going to be a time when you you

1986
01:29:25,580 --> 01:29:22,830
know you're you're asked to pass on

1987
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:25,590
information about what you're doing if

1988
01:29:32,480 --> 01:29:29,730
it's useful and if you're still in good

1989
01:29:33,740 --> 01:29:32,490
contact with your former they call you

1990
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:33,750
back into the game like I do on

1991
01:29:39,650 --> 01:29:36,690
television we have Mark Pilkington

1992
01:29:46,030 --> 01:29:39,660
author of Mirage man the co-host is

1993
01:29:52,190 --> 01:29:49,060
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1994
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1995
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1996
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1997
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1998
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1999
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2000
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2001
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2002
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2004
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2009
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2012
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2013
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2014
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2017
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2018
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2071
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2073
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2097
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2098
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2099
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2100
01:34:19,260 --> 01:34:16,140
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2101
01:34:21,990 --> 01:34:19,270
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2102
01:34:24,150 --> 01:34:22,000
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2103
01:34:26,160 --> 01:34:24,160
co-hosts is Nicolas Redfern I'm Jean

2104
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:26,170
Steinberg you're still in the para cast

2105
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:29,290
so the logical question here is they're

2106
01:34:35,040 --> 01:34:31,930
an organization a specific organization

2107
01:34:37,020 --> 01:34:35,050
of these mirage men or is it just a

2108
01:34:39,150 --> 01:34:37,030
bunch of different agencies different

2109
01:34:42,060 --> 01:34:39,160
people depending on the case and the

2110
01:34:45,150 --> 01:34:42,070
needs I my sense is that it'd be I think

2111
01:34:47,820 --> 01:34:45,160
this is just something that's kind of

2112
01:34:51,930 --> 01:34:47,830
pulled together as and when it's the

2113
01:34:54,510 --> 01:34:51,940
right thing to do and perhaps there are

2114
01:34:56,550 --> 01:34:54,520
certain people who are better informed

2115
01:34:59,040 --> 01:34:56,560
and more interested in the in the wider

2116
01:35:00,510 --> 01:34:59,050
the UFO field and they get and you know

2117
01:35:02,610 --> 01:35:00,520
maybe they get called on for their

2118
01:35:07,190 --> 01:35:02,620
expertise and their knowledge so it's

2119
01:35:09,480 --> 01:35:07,200
worth remembering that back in 1980 when

2120
01:35:12,300 --> 01:35:09,490
William Moore author of the Roswell

2121
01:35:15,570 --> 01:35:12,310
incident got involved with the Air Force

2122
01:35:17,850 --> 01:35:15,580
Office of Special Investigation and Rick

2123
01:35:21,720 --> 01:35:17,860
Doty you know his role was to provide

2124
01:35:24,120 --> 01:35:21,730
them with intelligence on what the

2125
01:35:26,730 --> 01:35:24,130
current hot topics and stories of

2126
01:35:30,060 --> 01:35:26,740
interest and the currents of directions

2127
01:35:32,610 --> 01:35:30,070
of research in the UFO field were and

2128
01:35:35,310 --> 01:35:32,620
they really really went on him heavily

2129
01:35:38,340 --> 01:35:35,320
for information so it's not as if they

2130
01:35:40,770 --> 01:35:38,350
knew themselves what you know it's not

2131
01:35:44,100 --> 01:35:40,780
as if they've been keeping close tabs on

2132
01:35:46,230 --> 01:35:44,110
on the UFO community so I think they

2133
01:35:48,420 --> 01:35:46,240
meet you they probably do these days I

2134
01:35:51,210 --> 01:35:48,430
think they scour the internet I would

2135
01:35:53,550 --> 01:35:51,220
guess if they need information and I was

2136
01:35:56,070 --> 01:35:53,560
recently chatting to Liew Nicholson who

2137
01:35:58,980 --> 01:35:56,080
runs the open mind forum who said that a

2138
01:36:00,930 --> 01:35:58,990
constant stream of intelligence service

2139
01:36:03,210 --> 01:36:00,940
kind of pointed it in their direction

2140
01:36:05,010 --> 01:36:03,220
the people who may well just have an

2141
01:36:07,260 --> 01:36:05,020
interest in the material and other times

2142
01:36:11,010 --> 01:36:07,270
might be you know fishing for new

2143
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:11,020
schemes and new ideas for deceptions but

2144
01:36:16,470 --> 01:36:14,530
and you know I think the UFO stories is

2145
01:36:19,470 --> 01:36:16,480
a useful one and it's a perpetually

2146
01:36:21,960 --> 01:36:19,480
useful one that is as much of a headache

2147
01:36:24,870 --> 01:36:21,970
for the Air Force and for the

2148
01:36:26,850 --> 01:36:24,880
intelligence services as it is a useful

2149
01:36:29,570 --> 01:36:26,860
cover and one of the things I try

2150
01:36:34,470 --> 01:36:29,580
to do in the book with each time I

2151
01:36:37,310 --> 01:36:34,480
brought in a reference to what I was

2152
01:36:41,760 --> 01:36:37,320
trying to suggest to the scene a

2153
01:36:44,669 --> 01:36:41,770
deception operation within the UFO arena

2154
01:36:47,550 --> 01:36:44,679
was try to bring in an analogous example

2155
01:36:50,790 --> 01:36:47,560
from outside so you know for other

2156
01:36:56,340 --> 01:36:50,800
incentives where either supernatural or

2157
01:36:59,990 --> 01:36:56,350
esoteric or folkloric sort of ideas and

2158
01:37:02,640 --> 01:37:00,000
and and concepts had been deployed in

2159
01:37:04,020 --> 01:37:02,650
intelligence operation today so I think

2160
01:37:07,290 --> 01:37:04,030
you know what I was trying to show is

2161
01:37:09,450 --> 01:37:07,300
that it's not all about UFOs UFOs are

2162
01:37:12,300 --> 01:37:09,460
just one of the things that that can be

2163
01:37:16,379 --> 01:37:12,310
can be pulled up at the dressing-up box

2164
01:37:19,290 --> 01:37:16,389
when it when it's useful to do so but we

2165
01:37:22,530 --> 01:37:19,300
mentioned Leon Davidson OE and one of

2166
01:37:25,649 --> 01:37:22,540
the things he seemed to believe that

2167
01:37:29,100 --> 01:37:25,659
there was much more of a focus kind of

2168
01:37:31,109 --> 01:37:29,110
UFO themed operation going on and he

2169
01:37:36,090 --> 01:37:31,119
thought much of it was to do with the

2170
01:37:38,640 --> 01:37:36,100
CIA even to the extent of them some of

2171
01:37:41,729 --> 01:37:38,650
George Adamski's there so secondary

2172
01:37:44,340 --> 01:37:41,739
contacts where he'd be driven out into

2173
01:37:46,649 --> 01:37:44,350
the desert in a black stretch do Rick I

2174
01:37:49,620 --> 01:37:46,659
think it was and to have given strange

2175
01:37:51,530 --> 01:37:49,630
drinks and made to watch films of

2176
01:37:54,750 --> 01:37:51,540
traveling through space

2177
01:37:58,169 --> 01:37:54,760
Davidson suggested that these were were

2178
01:38:01,350 --> 01:37:58,179
a kind of intelligent sostiene park

2179
01:38:04,260 --> 01:38:01,360
rides being set up for for a dance Keith

2180
01:38:07,430 --> 01:38:04,270
benefit than he also suggested that

2181
01:38:09,510 --> 01:38:07,440
there was a deliberate in the style of

2182
01:38:11,070 --> 01:38:09,520
Newman's The Flying Saucer which we

2183
01:38:15,300 --> 01:38:11,080
talked about earlier there was a

2184
01:38:20,280 --> 01:38:15,310
deliberate to program to spread the idea

2185
01:38:23,280 --> 01:38:20,290
that extraterrestrials very similar to

2186
01:38:26,010 --> 01:38:23,290
London in the davia Stood Still were

2187
01:38:28,950 --> 01:38:26,020
visiting earth and I think you can still

2188
01:38:31,140 --> 01:38:28,960
understand the you can't stand David's

2189
01:38:33,959 --> 01:38:31,150
and thinking about this you can also

2190
01:38:38,339 --> 01:38:33,969
understand why someone like Allen Dulles

2191
01:38:40,700 --> 01:38:38,349
who is a very thoughtful and engaged man

2192
01:38:43,910 --> 01:38:40,710
might see this as as

2193
01:38:46,850 --> 01:38:43,920
useful and at the end of world war two

2194
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:46,860
which was you know only only since five

2195
01:38:51,170 --> 01:38:48,570
to seven years in the past depending

2196
01:38:55,010 --> 01:38:51,180
when we're looking at there was a real

2197
01:38:59,090 --> 01:38:55,020
fear I think that that America and and

2198
01:39:02,090 --> 01:38:59,100
and and the serve Allied nations might

2199
01:39:06,550 --> 01:39:02,100
lose their faith in God and and become a

2200
01:39:09,950 --> 01:39:06,560
kind of morally bankrupt drifting

2201
01:39:12,650 --> 01:39:09,960
drifting nation of nihilist

2202
01:39:14,300 --> 01:39:12,660
because of them you know what God could

2203
01:39:16,729 --> 01:39:14,310
possibly have allowed the horrors of

2204
01:39:18,890 --> 01:39:16,739
World War two to take play you mentioned

2205
01:39:21,560 --> 01:39:18,900
George Adamski so the implication here

2206
01:39:23,479 --> 01:39:21,570
is that Adamski was not someone who just

2207
01:39:25,130 --> 01:39:23,489
made it all up but he was a victim of

2208
01:39:27,500 --> 01:39:25,140
some kind of government intervention is

2209
01:39:29,900 --> 01:39:27,510
that what you're suggesting here that's

2210
01:39:34,220 --> 01:39:29,910
of course what possibly dr. Davidson was

2211
01:39:36,229 --> 01:39:34,230
suggesting what Davidson was suggesting

2212
01:39:38,300 --> 01:39:36,239
yes and I'm sure Nick has something to

2213
01:39:41,390 --> 01:39:38,310
say on this because I actually used some

2214
01:39:41,750 --> 01:39:41,400
of his research and telling the powerful

2215
01:39:44,180 --> 01:39:41,760
story

2216
01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:44,190
well the reason I want to mention this

2217
01:39:48,229 --> 01:39:45,810
and this is something that may be ahead

2218
01:39:52,550 --> 01:39:48,239
of what Nick might want to say and that

2219
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:52,560
is I knew another contactee Howard min

2220
01:39:57,979 --> 01:39:55,170
jure oh yeah he had the same statement

2221
01:39:59,750 --> 01:39:57,989
you know I remember this lunch that Jim

2222
01:40:02,240 --> 01:39:59,760
Mosely and I had with Howard manager

2223
01:40:04,670 --> 01:40:02,250
many years ago and Landry said you know

2224
01:40:07,550 --> 01:40:04,680
I think I was part of some sort of

2225
01:40:11,150 --> 01:40:07,560
government experiment so are we tying

2226
01:40:16,010 --> 01:40:11,160
that into the same source yes funny you

2227
01:40:20,990 --> 01:40:16,020
should say that because I - sorry my

2228
01:40:23,090 --> 01:40:21,000
memory turkey green Beckley booth in new

2229
01:40:24,830 --> 01:40:23,100
york i think and right maybe we all

2230
01:40:26,930 --> 01:40:24,840
forget tim Beckley you know we always

2231
01:40:29,479 --> 01:40:26,940
forget his name but I've known Tim

2232
01:40:32,450 --> 01:40:29,489
Beckley since we were both kids so it

2233
01:40:35,209 --> 01:40:32,460
goes back a long time and actually was

2234
01:40:39,350 --> 01:40:35,219
in contact with exactly because he like

2235
01:40:42,740 --> 01:40:39,360
he was involved with Menza and I asked

2236
01:40:44,570 --> 01:40:42,750
him about this room is it that Howard

2237
01:40:47,420 --> 01:40:44,580
had said they had admitted that he

2238
01:40:51,229 --> 01:40:47,430
thought he was part of a you know some

2239
01:40:53,669 --> 01:40:51,239
kind of intelligence project and exactly

2240
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:53,679
he wasn't really

2241
01:40:58,229 --> 01:40:55,690
so prepared to go on the record about

2242
01:40:59,850 --> 01:40:58,239
that so I actually didn't use that story

2243
01:41:01,979 --> 01:40:59,860
in the book that I yeah but you know

2244
01:41:03,720 --> 01:41:01,989
what manager sent that to me and he said

2245
01:41:05,910 --> 01:41:03,730
that to Jim Mosely and we sat there and

2246
01:41:07,770 --> 01:41:05,920
that's what his position was yeah I

2247
01:41:11,010 --> 01:41:07,780
think it's entirely possible that Knicks

2248
01:41:13,080 --> 01:41:11,020
are you you want to amplify that at all

2249
01:41:15,479 --> 01:41:13,090
because you having written a book about

2250
01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:15,489
contactees this encroaches on your

2251
01:41:20,040 --> 01:41:17,770
territory which we're happy to do so

2252
01:41:22,350 --> 01:41:20,050
maybe you can contribute something yeah

2253
01:41:24,450 --> 01:41:22,360
I mean the slide was two important

2254
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:24,460
points worth noting one is the fact that

2255
01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:26,530
you know the contactees were watched

2256
01:41:30,990 --> 01:41:29,170
very closely by the FBI and other

2257
01:41:32,850 --> 01:41:31,000
agencies in the 50s we know that because

2258
01:41:35,310 --> 01:41:32,860
the files of service through the Freedom

2259
01:41:39,689 --> 01:41:35,320
of Information Act primarily from the

2260
01:41:42,180 --> 01:41:39,699
FBI Adamski FBI file is about 80 pages

2261
01:41:45,360 --> 01:41:42,190
George Van Tassel's is just under 400

2262
01:41:47,669 --> 01:41:45,370
and spans 13 years and it's quite clear

2263
01:41:51,149 --> 01:41:47,679
from some of the internal references

2264
01:41:54,600 --> 01:41:51,159
that the concern was that the sum of the

2265
01:41:56,939 --> 01:41:54,610
contactees were talking about scenarios

2266
01:41:58,770 --> 01:41:56,949
that were sort of pushing communism the

2267
01:42:00,990 --> 01:41:58,780
idea that the aliens are communists or

2268
01:42:03,300 --> 01:42:01,000
socialists and you know and I think the

2269
01:42:05,520 --> 01:42:03,310
fact that the penny dropped if you like

2270
01:42:07,110 --> 01:42:05,530
in the FBI and different agencies are

2271
01:42:09,479 --> 01:42:07,120
hang on you know these people are

2272
01:42:11,790 --> 01:42:09,489
lecturing to thousands of people at a

2273
01:42:13,590 --> 01:42:11,800
giant rock they're selling like in the

2274
01:42:15,209 --> 01:42:13,600
damn skis case light sources have landed

2275
01:42:16,950 --> 01:42:15,219
literally thousands of thousands of

2276
01:42:19,200 --> 01:42:16,960
copies of a book and they're saying the

2277
01:42:21,510 --> 01:42:19,210
Communist aliens of the future of the

2278
01:42:25,350 --> 01:42:21,520
world you can well understand why

2279
01:42:29,360 --> 01:42:25,360
someone may want to engage in some sort

2280
01:42:32,220 --> 01:42:29,370
of SIOP to either discredit them or

2281
01:42:35,669 --> 01:42:32,230
perhaps as mark points out you know

2282
01:42:38,189 --> 01:42:35,679
actually fabricate incidents to drive

2283
01:42:41,340 --> 01:42:38,199
them away from that communist political

2284
01:42:43,229 --> 01:42:41,350
angle and more downer I had more of a

2285
01:42:45,660 --> 01:42:43,239
conventional UFO path now another person

2286
01:42:47,729 --> 01:42:45,670
who we know this was done to well I

2287
01:42:50,669 --> 01:42:47,739
think they was done so and I wrote about

2288
01:42:52,649 --> 01:42:50,679
in contactees was all Theo Angelo Chi

2289
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:52,659
who had these various experiences

2290
01:42:58,860 --> 01:42:54,489
allegedly in the late forties and early

2291
01:43:00,899 --> 01:42:58,870
fifties of a classic contactee style but

2292
01:43:02,879 --> 01:43:00,909
in his follower book to his initial one

2293
01:43:05,280 --> 01:43:02,889
he talked about how he met this man who

2294
01:43:07,229 --> 01:43:05,290
he names in the book Adam they wanted to

2295
01:43:09,180 --> 01:43:07,239
talk to him about UFO experiences

2296
01:43:11,220 --> 01:43:09,190
and Adams said you know we should meet

2297
01:43:12,689 --> 01:43:11,230
at this diner house in the desert in

2298
01:43:15,180 --> 01:43:12,699
California desert which is sort of

2299
01:43:19,290 --> 01:43:15,190
classic contactee territory you know

2300
01:43:21,750 --> 01:43:19,300
diners in the desert and Angela she went

2301
01:43:23,100 --> 01:43:21,760
there and this guy Adam said you know

2302
01:43:24,799 --> 01:43:23,110
sit down and have lunch or dinner

2303
01:43:27,089 --> 01:43:24,809
whatever the time of the day was and

2304
01:43:28,709 --> 01:43:27,099
Adam basically said words to the effect

2305
01:43:30,720 --> 01:43:28,719
of before I can tell you about my

2306
01:43:33,810 --> 01:43:30,730
experiences you need to swallow this

2307
01:43:36,870 --> 01:43:33,820
pill and you know Angela gee whether

2308
01:43:38,549 --> 01:43:36,880
being gullible an idiot or whatever you

2309
01:43:40,350 --> 01:43:38,559
know he just went ahead and swallowed

2310
01:43:43,020 --> 01:43:40,360
the pill given to him by a complete

2311
01:43:46,410 --> 01:43:43,030
stranger and nothing happened for that

2312
01:43:48,509 --> 01:43:46,420
30 minutes after that time however he

2313
01:43:50,640 --> 01:43:48,519
began to feel a little bit unusual and

2314
01:43:52,709 --> 01:43:50,650
he said that the room seen the room

2315
01:43:55,470 --> 01:43:52,719
itself and the furniture seemed to take

2316
01:43:58,140 --> 01:43:55,480
on like some sort of ethereal meaning

2317
01:44:00,540 --> 01:43:58,150
and colors danced around the room and

2318
01:44:01,799 --> 01:44:00,550
the glass on the table shivered in a

2319
01:44:03,839 --> 01:44:01,809
strange light it's almost like he's

2320
01:44:05,520 --> 01:44:03,849
being put under an LSD trip or so I was

2321
01:44:11,060 --> 01:44:05,530
thinking that maybe Adam was really

2322
01:44:16,020 --> 01:44:13,229
hand you over to India of spilling his

2323
01:44:17,790 --> 01:44:16,030
guts to Adam about his experiences I

2324
01:44:20,009 --> 01:44:17,800
will have to get into that then opens up

2325
01:44:21,569 --> 01:44:20,019
the kind of words that we want to get

2326
01:44:23,939 --> 01:44:21,579
into in a moment we'll get into that can

2327
01:44:26,189 --> 01:44:23,949
of worms we have Nick Redfern as our

2328
01:44:28,379 --> 01:44:26,199
co-host mark Pilkington offered maraj

2329
01:44:36,430 --> 01:44:28,389
man joins us I'm gene Steinberg you're

2330
01:44:41,660 --> 01:44:38,980
[Music]

2331
01:44:43,610 --> 01:44:41,670
hi this is Ted Anderson if you own an

2332
01:44:45,890 --> 01:44:43,620
Apple iPhone and love to listen to your

2333
01:44:47,660 --> 01:44:45,900
favorite programs on GCM I've got good

2334
01:44:50,000 --> 01:44:47,670
news for you I'm proud to announce that

2335
01:44:52,580 --> 01:44:50,010
GCN has a brand new iPhone app available

2336
01:44:54,500 --> 01:44:52,590
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2337
01:44:56,600 --> 01:44:54,510
live.com listen to your favorite

2338
01:44:58,700 --> 01:44:56,610
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01:45:00,920 --> 01:44:58,710
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2343
01:45:09,860 --> 01:45:07,140
banner at GC and live.com

2344
01:45:11,480 --> 01:45:09,870
again that's GC and live.com hi this is

2345
01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:11,490
Ted Anderson have you ever wondered why

2346
01:45:15,110 --> 01:45:13,530
banks stockbrokers investment advisors

2347
01:45:17,210 --> 01:45:15,120
won't talk about gold IRAs

2348
01:45:18,950 --> 01:45:17,220
they've been available since 1986 yet

2349
01:45:20,900 --> 01:45:18,960
the financial industry won't recognize

2350
01:45:22,790 --> 01:45:20,910
the value of gold for your retirement

2351
01:45:24,950 --> 01:45:22,800
gold has outperformed paper investments

2352
01:45:55,220 --> 01:45:24,960
yet no word about IRAs if you would like

2353
01:46:01,020 --> 01:45:58,140
we are entering some fascinating

2354
01:46:03,330 --> 01:46:01,030
territory this week Jean Steinberg

2355
01:46:05,070 --> 01:46:03,340
you're in the para cast we have mark

2356
01:46:07,620 --> 01:46:05,080
Pilkington author of Mirage men an

2357
01:46:10,290 --> 01:46:07,630
exciting adventure into paranoia

2358
01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:10,300
espionage psychological warfare and UFOs

2359
01:46:14,670 --> 01:46:12,970
and Nick Redfern is our co-host

2360
01:46:17,160 --> 01:46:14,680
reminding us of something he talked

2361
01:46:18,750 --> 01:46:17,170
about earlier a few months back when he

2362
01:46:21,270 --> 01:46:18,760
was interviewed about his book about

2363
01:46:23,490 --> 01:46:21,280
contact Yves and about this meeting in

2364
01:46:25,710 --> 01:46:23,500
the diner between Orfeo Angelou Chee and

2365
01:46:28,890 --> 01:46:25,720
Adam and he takes the pill and he

2366
01:46:32,130 --> 01:46:28,900
suffers I guess Angelou she what we

2367
01:46:33,750 --> 01:46:32,140
might call a LSD trip of some sort right

2368
01:46:35,970 --> 01:46:33,760
that's how he comes across very much

2369
01:46:38,940 --> 01:46:35,980
like that he talks about the room being

2370
01:46:41,040 --> 01:46:38,950
filled with vivid colors literally

2371
01:46:44,130 --> 01:46:41,050
furniture takes on some sort of

2372
01:46:46,170 --> 01:46:44,140
psychological ethereal meaning he says

2373
01:46:48,210 --> 01:46:46,180
that any glass of juice or whatever he's

2374
01:46:50,520 --> 01:46:48,220
got in front of him but he suddenly sees

2375
01:46:53,400 --> 01:46:50,530
this little woman dancing in the liquid

2376
01:46:55,650 --> 01:46:53,410
behind he's totally spaced out it starts

2377
01:46:57,840 --> 01:46:55,660
talking all about his UFO experiences on

2378
01:47:00,150 --> 01:46:57,850
top of that he says that all the while

2379
01:47:02,430 --> 01:47:00,160
he's doing this there are two guys sat

2380
01:47:04,800 --> 01:47:02,440
at the table next to him staring

2381
01:47:07,050 --> 01:47:04,810
intently the military uniforms no less

2382
01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:07,060
now of course as mark knows from his

2383
01:47:12,780 --> 01:47:09,730
book if you look at the time frame at

2384
01:47:15,890 --> 01:47:12,790
this early 50s 50 to 53 this is when you

2385
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:15,900
had things like the Frank Olson death

2386
01:47:21,810 --> 01:47:19,810
MKULTRA early LSD research all sorts of

2387
01:47:23,640 --> 01:47:21,820
things like this and you know I don't

2388
01:47:25,890 --> 01:47:23,650
take too much time away for markets ease

2389
01:47:29,820 --> 01:47:25,900
into you but just suffice to save it it

2390
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:29,830
sounds to me very much like the certain

2391
01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:31,690
of the contactees who were seen as

2392
01:47:36,060 --> 01:47:33,370
potentially being troublesome from a

2393
01:47:38,670 --> 01:47:36,070
political perspective may well have been

2394
01:47:40,350 --> 01:47:38,680
tampered with in some fashion to either

2395
01:47:43,620 --> 01:47:40,360
get them to change their story or to

2396
01:47:45,390 --> 01:47:43,630
influence their stories to more suitable

2397
01:47:47,280 --> 01:47:45,400
and acceptable mindset you may actually

2398
01:47:50,040 --> 01:47:47,290
be ironically that people at the CIA

2399
01:47:52,020 --> 01:47:50,050
didn't want to destroy the contact a

2400
01:47:54,090 --> 01:47:52,030
mystery they may wanted to use you for

2401
01:47:56,310 --> 01:47:54,100
their own ends that wanting to get rid

2402
01:47:59,790 --> 01:47:56,320
of this pro-communist angle that so many

2403
01:48:01,610 --> 01:47:59,800
of the concept e's seem to expose that's

2404
01:48:05,540 --> 01:48:01,620
really fascinating that can and just

2405
01:48:07,750 --> 01:48:05,550
looking at comparing a statement from

2406
01:48:10,270 --> 01:48:07,760
Adamski with those of

2407
01:48:12,970 --> 01:48:10,280
also of angelou Chi I mean a dance keep

2408
01:48:15,240 --> 01:48:12,980
saying telling an SPI agent within the

2409
01:48:17,650 --> 01:48:15,250
next 12 months upon Diego will be bombed

2410
01:48:19,780 --> 01:48:17,660
United States's in the same state of

2411
01:48:22,090 --> 01:48:19,790
deterioration of the Roman Empire prior

2412
01:48:23,530 --> 01:48:22,100
to it to collapse the government is a

2413
01:48:24,970 --> 01:48:23,540
corrupt form of government and

2414
01:48:27,250 --> 01:48:24,980
capitalists are enslaving the poor

2415
01:48:29,430 --> 01:48:27,260
that's not the kind of thing they wanted

2416
01:48:32,890 --> 01:48:29,440
being from outer space now the

2417
01:48:35,680 --> 01:48:32,900
broadcasting where as Angelou Chi in

2418
01:48:39,550 --> 01:48:35,690
contrast who was actually Carolyn's

2419
01:48:41,680 --> 01:48:39,560
favorite contact he is saying communism

2420
01:48:44,350 --> 01:48:41,690
as Earth's present fundamental enemy and

2421
01:48:47,140 --> 01:48:44,360
not happen Issa the banner spearhead of

2422
01:48:50,800 --> 01:48:47,150
the United force of evil it's a you know

2423
01:48:53,380 --> 01:48:50,810
and so we can see who who was on wet

2424
01:48:55,210 --> 01:48:53,390
Maidan that emotion the interesting

2425
01:48:56,800 --> 01:48:55,220
thing is so I dimensional the

2426
01:48:59,110 --> 01:48:56,810
interesting thing is that Angelo Cheney

2427
01:49:01,960 --> 01:48:59,120
one of his two books actually say is

2428
01:49:03,550 --> 01:49:01,970
that during a tour of the east coast of

2429
01:49:06,430 --> 01:49:03,560
the US he was approached by what he

2430
01:49:09,520 --> 01:49:06,440
described as a mysterious group that

2431
01:49:11,590 --> 01:49:09,530
wanted him to slant his lectures down as

2432
01:49:13,150 --> 01:49:11,600
he called it the party line and he

2433
01:49:15,040 --> 01:49:13,160
refused to do that and it was round

2434
01:49:17,140 --> 01:49:15,050
about this time that he got this visit

2435
01:49:18,610 --> 01:49:17,150
from this guy Adam so even though Angela

2436
01:49:20,530 --> 01:49:18,620
he wasn't promoting it may well have

2437
01:49:22,900 --> 01:49:20,540
been the case that somebody wanted to

2438
01:49:25,270 --> 01:49:22,910
know who wanted him to promote it I

2439
01:49:26,860 --> 01:49:25,280
think that's a possibility yeah and you

2440
01:49:29,410 --> 01:49:26,870
know the thing we really mustn't forget

2441
01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:29,420
that at this time you know we don't

2442
01:49:35,950 --> 01:49:32,210
think of it anymore but the threat of

2443
01:49:38,920 --> 01:49:35,960
communism and of and of the communist

2444
01:49:41,200 --> 01:49:38,930
infiltrators in fired America and inside

2445
01:49:43,360 --> 01:49:41,210
even the you know the military and the

2446
01:49:45,340 --> 01:49:43,370
government and even in the White House

2447
01:49:48,790 --> 01:49:45,350
was was not just a fear it was an

2448
01:49:52,060 --> 01:49:48,800
absolute reality so anybody who was you

2449
01:49:54,729 --> 01:49:52,070
know espousing anything that seemed to

2450
01:49:57,220 --> 01:49:54,739
be promoting so common as viewpoints was

2451
01:49:59,620 --> 01:49:57,230
was really treated extremely seriously

2452
01:50:03,010 --> 01:49:59,630
and I believe actually you know my

2453
01:50:05,020 --> 01:50:03,020
myself hunch is that's why they Marie

2454
01:50:10,690 --> 01:50:05,030
island incident happened with Kenneth

2455
01:50:14,260 --> 01:50:10,700
Arnold back in July 47 because after his

2456
01:50:16,750 --> 01:50:14,270
June fighting of over Mount Rainier

2457
01:50:20,340 --> 01:50:16,760
Arnold rubs it certainly wasn't talking

2458
01:50:24,150 --> 01:50:20,350
about outer space he was talking about

2459
01:50:27,930 --> 01:50:24,160
I possibly Soviet experimental craft but

2460
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:27,940
he also taught a lot about American

2461
01:50:33,120 --> 01:50:30,970
crafts possibly using atomic engines and

2462
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:33,130
the irony was that he wouldn't have

2463
01:50:38,280 --> 01:50:35,650
known it but at the time the Air Force

2464
01:50:40,260 --> 01:50:38,290
was actually serve on the drawing boards

2465
01:50:43,200 --> 01:50:40,270
at least experimenting with the idea of

2466
01:50:46,920 --> 01:50:43,210
nuclear propulsion for aircraft so they

2467
01:50:48,270 --> 01:50:46,930
had him going talking willy-nilly to the

2468
01:50:50,730 --> 01:50:48,280
press and anyone who had listened about

2469
01:50:54,120 --> 01:50:50,740
these things was you know potentially

2470
01:50:55,950 --> 01:50:54,130
made him a threat so I think what the

2471
01:50:59,970 --> 01:50:55,960
Murray Island incident may have been

2472
01:51:02,670 --> 01:50:59,980
about was setting up a sa honey trap in

2473
01:51:04,290 --> 01:51:02,680
order to investigate him and his real

2474
01:51:07,830 --> 01:51:04,300
motives and of course it ended

2475
01:51:11,220 --> 01:51:07,840
tragically with the first two death ever

2476
01:51:13,500 --> 01:51:11,230
would therefore the newly formed United

2477
01:51:15,060 --> 01:51:13,510
faith therefore I'll tell you I want to

2478
01:51:15,690 --> 01:51:15,070
ask you a question here you touched on

2479
01:51:20,610 --> 01:51:15,700
Roswell

2480
01:51:22,440 --> 01:51:20,620
same framework that it was something

2481
01:51:24,240 --> 01:51:22,450
that was staged and just maybe got out

2482
01:51:27,900 --> 01:51:24,250
of control that people today still

2483
01:51:30,930 --> 01:51:27,910
believe it was a UFO crash I I mean Rosa

2484
01:51:33,960 --> 01:51:30,940
was just such a as we all know just such

2485
01:51:36,840 --> 01:51:33,970
an incredible triangle but I am so

2486
01:51:39,660 --> 01:51:36,850
hesitant to get too involved in it I do

2487
01:51:42,470 --> 01:51:39,670
talk about it in the book and you know I

2488
01:51:44,810 --> 01:51:42,480
think one thing I wondered is this

2489
01:51:48,240 --> 01:51:44,820
personally I think it may well have been

2490
01:51:49,650 --> 01:51:48,250
the Mogul balloon that the air force so

2491
01:51:52,110 --> 01:51:49,660
it was which is probably the most

2492
01:51:54,000 --> 01:51:52,120
controversial viewpoint you can put

2493
01:51:58,440 --> 01:51:54,010
forward you know it may well have been a

2494
01:52:00,750 --> 01:51:58,450
mobile balloon and perhaps the Roswell

2495
01:52:02,340 --> 01:52:00,760
Army Air Force Base press people thought

2496
01:52:04,560 --> 01:52:02,350
well the best thing to do is just cover

2497
01:52:06,870 --> 01:52:04,570
it up and if we say it's a flying saucer

2498
01:52:09,720 --> 01:52:06,880
and no one will take us seriously and

2499
01:52:11,850 --> 01:52:09,730
then of course this shot around the

2500
01:52:13,890 --> 01:52:11,860
world and their superiors may well have

2501
01:52:16,710 --> 01:52:13,900
said you said what are you crazy

2502
01:52:18,600 --> 01:52:16,720
you know get get on the get on the

2503
01:52:20,820 --> 01:52:18,610
photograph from the radio right now and

2504
01:52:23,430 --> 01:52:20,830
tell them it was just a just a weather

2505
01:52:25,680 --> 01:52:23,440
balloon and and hence the staging it so

2506
01:52:28,140 --> 01:52:25,690
as the famous photograph with Jesse

2507
01:52:29,400 --> 01:52:28,150
Marcel so that's one possibility and the

2508
01:52:30,920 --> 01:52:29,410
things are very mind is that this

2509
01:52:34,040 --> 01:52:30,930
absolutely works and

2510
01:52:37,850 --> 01:52:34,050
there are next to no mention the Roswell

2511
01:52:40,610 --> 01:52:37,860
in the UFO literature until 1979 1980

2512
01:52:43,820 --> 01:52:40,620
when when Bill Moore who got involved

2513
01:52:44,840 --> 01:52:43,830
with the Benowitz story and Rick Doty in

2514
01:52:47,420 --> 01:52:44,850
the Air Force Office of Special

2515
01:52:50,360 --> 01:52:47,430
Investigations he researched and wrote

2516
01:52:52,940 --> 01:52:50,370
the book that was Co at least on the

2517
01:52:55,160 --> 01:52:52,950
cover with co-authored with Charles

2518
01:52:57,440 --> 01:52:55,170
Berlitz and so Roswell it just didn't

2519
01:53:01,490 --> 01:52:57,450
exist I was reminded of this recently

2520
01:53:03,020 --> 01:53:01,500
talking to John Rimmer of Magana and one

2521
01:53:05,450 --> 01:53:03,030
of his colleagues Peter Anderson

2522
01:53:07,520 --> 01:53:05,460
compiled what was considered at the time

2523
01:53:11,120 --> 01:53:07,530
you know really the most comprehensive

2524
01:53:14,030 --> 01:53:11,130
database of UFO accounts through

2525
01:53:16,700 --> 01:53:14,040
services through the 60s 70s and 80s and

2526
01:53:18,080 --> 01:53:16,710
until the Roswell material started to

2527
01:53:20,390 --> 01:53:18,090
come out in the late seventies there was

2528
01:53:22,670 --> 01:53:20,400
Roswell didn't even figure in this in

2529
01:53:25,660 --> 01:53:22,680
this database which really gives a sense

2530
01:53:28,580 --> 01:53:25,670
of what a non-story it was until it was

2531
01:53:30,530 --> 01:53:28,590
reactivated so I think whatever the

2532
01:53:32,330 --> 01:53:30,540
reason and whatever they do we know that

2533
01:53:34,340 --> 01:53:32,340
it worked well the one thing about

2534
01:53:36,470 --> 01:53:34,350
Roswell that bothers a lot of people and

2535
01:53:39,350 --> 01:53:36,480
bothers me is the fact that we have

2536
01:53:42,710 --> 01:53:39,360
people remembering what happened 20 30

2537
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:42,720
40 years previously and memories can

2538
01:53:48,470 --> 01:53:46,170
change popular culture can change it's

2539
01:53:50,570 --> 01:53:48,480
really difficult to iron this out now

2540
01:53:53,090 --> 01:53:50,580
yes the people who support Russ will say

2541
01:53:55,670 --> 01:53:53,100
there is a remarkable consistency in the

2542
01:53:58,160 --> 01:53:55,680
stories and I'll leave it at that I want

2543
01:54:00,710 --> 01:53:58,170
to ask you mark about something else

2544
01:54:03,710 --> 01:54:00,720
because we focus mostly on UFOs and this

2545
01:54:06,260 --> 01:54:03,720
is peripherally connected to it one of

2546
01:54:08,870 --> 01:54:06,270
the questions in fact the question most

2547
01:54:12,350 --> 01:54:08,880
often posed in our forums over at forum

2548
01:54:14,270 --> 01:54:12,360
dr. Peric ascom about your book they're

2549
01:54:16,130 --> 01:54:14,280
asking about crop circles that's all

2550
01:54:18,640 --> 01:54:16,140
they seem to be concerned about so tell

2551
01:54:22,130 --> 01:54:18,650
me about crop circles and how this is

2552
01:54:25,130 --> 01:54:22,140
part of this picture okay I mean I would

2553
01:54:27,080 --> 01:54:25,140
quickly like to just to back you up

2554
01:54:30,230 --> 01:54:27,090
there and reiterate your point on the

2555
01:54:31,840 --> 01:54:30,240
probability of memory and actually very

2556
01:54:36,860 --> 01:54:31,850
quickly I took in the book about

2557
01:54:39,410 --> 01:54:36,870
Elizabeth Loftus experiments whereby she

2558
01:54:42,740 --> 01:54:39,420
was able to induce false memories in

2559
01:54:44,189 --> 01:54:42,750
people that they had met burning as a

2560
01:54:46,949 --> 01:54:44,199
child at did

2561
01:54:48,390 --> 01:54:46,959
and and of course there the lawyers have

2562
01:54:51,029 --> 01:54:48,400
Warner Brothers and Walt Disney would

2563
01:54:52,799 --> 01:54:51,039
not allow Bugs Bunny to be wandering

2564
01:54:56,430 --> 01:54:52,809
around Disneyland with unless they

2565
01:54:58,259 --> 01:54:56,440
made a Mel Blanc of course ladies and

2566
01:55:01,169 --> 01:54:58,269
gentlemen Mel Blanc the late Mel Blanc

2567
01:55:03,239 --> 01:55:01,179
comedian was originally the voice of

2568
01:55:04,830 --> 01:55:03,249
Bugs Bunny and Porky Pig and I think his

2569
01:55:06,779 --> 01:55:04,840
son took it over this is just trivia

2570
01:55:08,939 --> 01:55:06,789
that nobody cares about but let me tell

2571
01:55:11,669 --> 01:55:08,949
everybody that we have mark Pilkington

2572
01:55:14,040 --> 01:55:11,679
and he's author of a book called Mirage

2573
01:55:16,759 --> 01:55:14,050
men it's a hardcover book subtitled an

2574
01:55:20,219 --> 01:55:16,769
adventure into paranoia espionage

2575
01:55:22,799 --> 01:55:20,229
psychological warfare and UFOs and we

2576
01:55:25,799 --> 01:55:22,809
were focusing briefly on how memories

2577
01:55:28,080 --> 01:55:25,809
may be altered over a period of time I

2578
01:55:30,479 --> 01:55:28,090
don't think I met Bugs Bunny as a kid by

2579
01:55:39,689 --> 01:55:30,489
the way our co-host is Nick Redfern I'm

2580
01:55:41,939 --> 01:55:39,699
gene Steinberg you're in hey neighbors

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2671
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shipping on orders over $50 only at

2672
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Maine military.com

2673
01:59:30,490 --> 01:59:28,730
that's ma i n e military.com or

2674
01:59:32,710 --> 01:59:30,500
colleague seven seven six oh eight oh

2675
01:59:35,800 --> 01:59:32,720
one seven nine eight seven seven six oh

2676
01:59:40,090 --> 01:59:35,810
eight or 179 main military comm the main

2677
01:59:43,450 --> 01:59:40,100
name in military supply on air online

2678
01:59:45,640 --> 01:59:43,460
and on demand they say we offer simple

2679
01:59:51,310 --> 01:59:45,650
answers to complex problems we are the

2680
01:59:55,940 --> 01:59:54,140
we want to hear from you if you have a

2681
01:59:59,720 --> 01:59:55,950
comment or question about the pair cast

2682
02:00:03,290 --> 01:59:59,730
send it to news at the para cast com

2683
02:00:04,880 --> 02:00:03,300
that's news at the para cast calm and

2684
02:00:07,580 --> 02:00:04,890
don't forget to visit our famous pair

2685
02:00:10,220 --> 02:00:07,590
cast community forums at forum dot the

2686
02:00:16,550 --> 02:00:10,230
para cast com get in on all the action

2687
02:00:19,340 --> 02:00:16,560
at forum dot the para cast comm we have

2688
02:00:21,740 --> 02:00:19,350
mark Pilkington joining us Nick Redfern

2689
02:00:23,660 --> 02:00:21,750
is the co-host I'm gene Steinberg you're

2690
02:00:25,340 --> 02:00:23,670
in the para cast and we're talking about

2691
02:00:26,930 --> 02:00:25,350
the accuracy of memories and very

2692
02:00:29,360 --> 02:00:26,940
briefly you mentioned how people were

2693
02:00:32,120 --> 02:00:29,370
made to think that they met Bugs Bunny

2694
02:00:34,700 --> 02:00:32,130
at Disneyland and this is a way of

2695
02:00:36,440 --> 02:00:34,710
manipulating memories so anytime people

2696
02:00:39,830 --> 02:00:36,450
will remember things that happened as a

2697
02:00:43,640 --> 02:00:39,840
child is that something that may be very

2698
02:00:45,410 --> 02:00:43,650
faulty maybe very colored yes absolutely

2699
02:00:46,310 --> 02:00:45,420
and I think as you were saying it's you

2700
02:00:47,630 --> 02:00:46,320
know trigger

2701
02:00:49,700 --> 02:00:47,640
trying to remember what you were doing

2702
02:00:52,580 --> 02:00:49,710
this time yesterday let alone what

2703
02:00:54,790 --> 02:00:52,590
you're doing 40 50 60 years ago I think

2704
02:00:57,970 --> 02:00:54,800
we have to be very very careful of

2705
02:01:02,780 --> 02:00:57,980
people's recollections of you know of

2706
02:01:05,270 --> 02:01:02,790
alleged UFO events and what we were

2707
02:01:08,930 --> 02:01:05,280
referencing the the Roswell story it was

2708
02:01:12,310 --> 02:01:08,940
actually a very good little story in the

2709
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:12,320
new issue of 14 times which the British

2710
02:01:18,260 --> 02:01:15,210
magazine as ever anomalous and and

2711
02:01:20,720 --> 02:01:18,270
paranormal phenomena with a an alien

2712
02:01:23,510 --> 02:01:20,730
abductee who was convinced for years

2713
02:01:25,910 --> 02:01:23,520
that he had childhood memories of being

2714
02:01:27,680 --> 02:01:25,920
you know classic abduction memories of

2715
02:01:29,510 --> 02:01:27,690
being picked up by the grave and

2716
02:01:32,630 --> 02:01:29,520
hampered with medically and emotionally

2717
02:01:34,940 --> 02:01:32,640
and psychically and we were absolutely

2718
02:01:38,740 --> 02:01:34,950
convinced was very much involved in the

2719
02:01:42,140 --> 02:01:38,750
U K inductions as seen as such as it was

2720
02:01:45,110 --> 02:01:42,150
until he found his actual notebooks from

2721
02:01:47,479 --> 02:01:45,120
the period but he remembered these

2722
02:01:50,180 --> 02:01:47,489
events we're taking place and his

2723
02:01:52,700 --> 02:01:50,190
notebooks described experiences that

2724
02:01:54,830 --> 02:01:52,710
were entirely mundane and had absolutely

2725
02:01:57,080 --> 02:01:54,840
nothing to do with aliens and he you

2726
02:01:59,090 --> 02:01:57,090
know realized that he allows himself to

2727
02:02:01,160 --> 02:01:59,100
kind of project these memories into his

2728
02:02:03,560 --> 02:02:01,170
own past into his own

2729
02:02:05,540 --> 02:02:03,570
conscious sorry so you have to you know

2730
02:02:08,660 --> 02:02:05,550
we really do have to be careful and if

2731
02:02:12,169 --> 02:02:08,670
we consider and a lot of but certainly

2732
02:02:14,810 --> 02:02:12,179
the historic UFO incident as kind of

2733
02:02:17,120 --> 02:02:14,820
stories which is effectively what they

2734
02:02:19,459 --> 02:02:17,130
are as so folklore to a certain extent

2735
02:02:22,370 --> 02:02:19,469
then if you look at the way they

2736
02:02:24,560 --> 02:02:22,380
escalate and they become increasingly so

2737
02:02:26,689 --> 02:02:24,570
involved and convoluted and dramatic

2738
02:02:29,419 --> 02:02:26,699
over the years but you know if you think

2739
02:02:31,040 --> 02:02:29,429
of yeah fishermen pale you know that the

2740
02:02:34,459 --> 02:02:31,050
fish the fish keep getting bigger and

2741
02:02:37,310 --> 02:02:34,469
the story keeps keeps getting more it

2742
02:02:38,660 --> 02:02:37,320
more in gold and more dramatic I tell

2743
02:02:40,100 --> 02:02:38,670
you what let me just shortcut this

2744
02:02:42,050 --> 02:02:40,110
because we only have a few segments left

2745
02:02:44,209 --> 02:02:42,060
and I do want to get into crop circles

2746
02:02:46,430 --> 02:02:44,219
in a moment but can you say at the end

2747
02:02:50,439 --> 02:02:46,440
of it there is a real UFO mystery that's

2748
02:02:54,260 --> 02:02:50,449
involved yeah I think I think the

2749
02:02:56,689 --> 02:02:54,270
tragedy of all disinformation and

2750
02:02:59,030 --> 02:02:56,699
deception and game playing that goes on

2751
02:03:02,540 --> 02:02:59,040
within the UFO world and UFO community

2752
02:03:04,479 --> 02:03:02,550
is that we may well therefore be missing

2753
02:03:07,910 --> 02:03:04,489
the true signal and there may well be

2754
02:03:09,950 --> 02:03:07,920
you know there may be maybe one needle

2755
02:03:12,770 --> 02:03:09,960
still buried amongst the haystacks of

2756
02:03:14,930 --> 02:03:12,780
this information and my sense is that as

2757
02:03:18,280 --> 02:03:14,940
yet and and this will be controversial

2758
02:03:21,260 --> 02:03:18,290
as yet I don't I've yet to see any

2759
02:03:24,910 --> 02:03:21,270
convincing evidence that has made me

2760
02:03:28,280 --> 02:03:24,920
feel that we have had an ongoing

2761
02:03:31,700 --> 02:03:28,290
engagement or visit with or visitations

2762
02:03:33,650 --> 02:03:31,710
from extraterrestrial intelligences so

2763
02:03:36,830 --> 02:03:33,660
that's just me and I certainly would

2764
02:03:38,570 --> 02:03:36,840
never want to stop anyone else from came

2765
02:03:40,760 --> 02:03:38,580
believing what what they wanted to

2766
02:03:44,140 --> 02:03:40,770
believe but I think people you know

2767
02:03:47,390 --> 02:03:44,150
really do have to take very careful

2768
02:03:50,030 --> 02:03:47,400
account in consideration of the extent

2769
02:03:52,689 --> 02:03:50,040
to which this field is open to

2770
02:03:56,360 --> 02:03:52,699
manipulation and exploitation by

2771
02:03:59,680 --> 02:03:56,370
tricksters and and deception specialists

2772
02:04:01,640 --> 02:03:59,690
within the military and intelligence

2773
02:04:04,580 --> 02:04:01,650
organizations and within the UFO

2774
02:04:07,220 --> 02:04:04,590
community as well okay crop circles as I

2775
02:04:09,680 --> 02:04:07,230
said people who inquired about your book

2776
02:04:11,030 --> 02:04:09,690
talked about crop circles so can we

2777
02:04:13,750 --> 02:04:11,040
assume that all the crop circles are

2778
02:04:15,879 --> 02:04:13,760
faked that people just make those things

2779
02:04:18,729 --> 02:04:15,889
their backyards just for the heck of it

2780
02:04:21,549 --> 02:04:18,739
not fake they're real but yes they're

2781
02:04:24,160 --> 02:04:21,559
made by they are made by people and not

2782
02:04:27,009 --> 02:04:24,170
in their own backyards you should almost

2783
02:04:29,490 --> 02:04:27,019
always in other people's backyard

2784
02:04:33,279 --> 02:04:29,500
usually farmers through and growing

2785
02:04:36,520 --> 02:04:33,289
wheat or right over in the UK certainly

2786
02:04:38,350 --> 02:04:36,530
the most appliable crops but yeah my so

2787
02:04:42,330 --> 02:04:38,360
general rule some and I can say this

2788
02:04:46,419 --> 02:04:42,340
with someone who was involved in making

2789
02:04:49,149 --> 02:04:46,429
crop circles for nine over nine years is

2790
02:04:52,770 --> 02:04:49,159
that other generals from anything more

2791
02:04:58,359 --> 02:04:52,780
than a kind of misshapen blob has been

2792
02:05:02,410 --> 02:04:58,369
made by people by groups of anything

2793
02:05:04,990 --> 02:05:02,420
from three to or two actually two at

2794
02:05:07,479 --> 02:05:05,000
most I'd say twelve twelve people and

2795
02:05:09,700 --> 02:05:07,489
and to be fair a few misshapen blobs are

2796
02:05:12,339 --> 02:05:09,710
made by people as well depends on your

2797
02:05:15,430 --> 02:05:12,349
ability at artistic pursuits or are

2798
02:05:18,910 --> 02:05:15,440
there basically these models they could

2799
02:05:19,540 --> 02:05:18,920
just trace to me quite involved and

2800
02:05:22,089 --> 02:05:19,550
involved

2801
02:05:25,569 --> 02:05:22,099
it does it does require a lot of skill

2802
02:05:27,339 --> 02:05:25,579
and you know hard hard work and a lot of

2803
02:05:31,930 --> 02:05:27,349
planning and that you can't just go into

2804
02:05:33,759 --> 02:05:31,940
a field and you know just freestyle it

2805
02:05:35,290 --> 02:05:33,769
because you'll make a horrible mess like

2806
02:05:37,870 --> 02:05:35,300
this it doesn't work like that it does

2807
02:05:39,970 --> 02:05:37,880
require a great deal of preparation and

2808
02:05:43,410 --> 02:05:39,980
it's no as you know it's not something

2809
02:05:46,899 --> 02:05:43,420
to be dismissed it's an incredibly

2810
02:05:49,779 --> 02:05:46,909
elaborate and and genuinely skillful out

2811
02:05:51,580 --> 02:05:49,789
for me is how I would would sort of

2812
02:05:55,209 --> 02:05:51,590
present it but I think the interesting

2813
02:05:57,939 --> 02:05:55,219
part you know the construction itself is

2814
02:06:01,359 --> 02:05:57,949
like being a giant spirograph Oh giant

2815
02:06:03,399 --> 02:06:01,369
geometry set and really the the art to

2816
02:06:06,640 --> 02:06:03,409
the crop circle phenomenon I think is in

2817
02:06:09,040 --> 02:06:06,650
the reception as in the people who view

2818
02:06:12,609 --> 02:06:09,050
them and generate you know really quite

2819
02:06:16,029 --> 02:06:12,619
stunning and amazing and even beautiful

2820
02:06:19,270 --> 02:06:16,039
and interpretations around what are

2821
02:06:22,330 --> 02:06:19,280
effectively and you know patterns etched

2822
02:06:25,240 --> 02:06:22,340
into the etched into the fields of the

2823
02:06:26,530 --> 02:06:25,250
English countryside okay that's expand

2824
02:06:29,020 --> 02:06:26,540
a little bit because we have just a

2825
02:06:32,170 --> 02:06:29,030
couple of segments left and that is what

2826
02:06:34,570 --> 02:06:32,180
about general paranormal events now you

2827
02:06:37,450 --> 02:06:34,580
mentioned UFOs applying to a certain

2828
02:06:39,640 --> 02:06:37,460
category of disinformation we have crop

2829
02:06:42,220 --> 02:06:39,650
circles is that part of the government

2830
02:06:45,520 --> 02:06:42,230
plot or was just always individuals who

2831
02:06:50,170 --> 02:06:45,530
are playing games I don't think they've

2832
02:06:52,720 --> 02:06:50,180
ever been as far as I know and my

2833
02:06:55,210 --> 02:06:52,730
friends who I was making crop circles

2834
02:06:58,480 --> 02:06:55,220
with and a much more deeply enmeshed in

2835
02:07:01,330 --> 02:06:58,490
the culture surrounding them than I am

2836
02:07:03,550 --> 02:07:01,340
they pretty much know who has made

2837
02:07:06,910 --> 02:07:03,560
everything over a year and and actually

2838
02:07:09,460 --> 02:07:06,920
going back so quite some time now it's

2839
02:07:12,460 --> 02:07:09,470
curious that there's only one I think

2840
02:07:15,520 --> 02:07:12,470
that that I remember they couldn't

2841
02:07:17,350 --> 02:07:15,530
identify if I'm right and if someone

2842
02:07:19,420 --> 02:07:17,360
Berg was online I'm sure he did it

2843
02:07:22,660 --> 02:07:19,430
correctly but that's the famous

2844
02:07:25,950 --> 02:07:22,670
Mandelbrot set formation and actually

2845
02:07:29,020 --> 02:07:25,960
John and his colleague Robert Inge were

2846
02:07:31,450 --> 02:07:29,030
hired to recreate this for the BBC a few

2847
02:07:34,030 --> 02:07:31,460
years ago if they did it in driving rain

2848
02:07:36,130 --> 02:07:34,040
and and wind one night and that he said

2849
02:07:37,960 --> 02:07:36,140
it was a difficult formation to do that

2850
02:07:39,580 --> 02:07:37,970
society I know that's the only through

2851
02:07:42,580 --> 02:07:39,590
traffic formation they haven't been able

2852
02:07:45,130 --> 02:07:42,590
to pin to a particular team or group of

2853
02:07:47,020 --> 02:07:45,140
people okay back to normal paranormal

2854
02:07:50,500 --> 02:07:47,030
events or abnormal paranormal events

2855
02:07:53,500 --> 02:07:50,510
other than UFOs and we're setting aside

2856
02:07:54,520 --> 02:07:53,510
crop circles what else are they doing

2857
02:07:56,230 --> 02:07:54,530
this is a question that's going to

2858
02:07:57,790 --> 02:07:56,240
create a cliffhanger because we'll have

2859
02:08:00,130 --> 02:07:57,800
to have an answer in the next section

2860
02:08:03,370 --> 02:08:00,140
which is what other types of strange

2861
02:08:06,070 --> 02:08:03,380
events are the disinformation specialist

2862
02:08:11,470 --> 02:08:06,080
mirages meant or otherwise trying to

2863
02:08:13,660 --> 02:08:11,480
produce or or create a reminder that

2864
02:08:15,880 --> 02:08:13,670
Nick Redfern returns next week as a

2865
02:08:17,860 --> 02:08:15,890
guest with Chris O'Brien as the co-host

2866
02:08:20,740 --> 02:08:17,870
Nick will be talking about his new book

2867
02:08:22,840 --> 02:08:20,750
final events we have mark Pilkington

2868
02:08:25,360 --> 02:08:22,850
author of Miraj men an adventure into

2869
02:08:29,770 --> 02:08:25,370
paranoia espionage psychological warfare

2870
02:08:33,890 --> 02:08:29,780
and UFOs the co-host is Nick Redfern I'm

2871
02:08:33,900 --> 02:08:39,810
[Music]

2872
02:08:45,970 --> 02:08:43,840
is there a secret UFO agenda to strange

2873
02:08:48,490 --> 02:08:45,980
creatures from the darkest corners of

2874
02:08:51,310 --> 02:08:48,500
the mind roam the earth is there

2875
02:08:55,000 --> 02:08:51,320
evidence for mind control time travel or

2876
02:08:56,590 --> 02:08:55,010
devious government conspiracies find out

2877
02:08:59,230 --> 02:08:56,600
the inside scoop on the latest

2878
02:09:01,870 --> 02:08:59,240
conspiracies paranormal activity and

2879
02:09:04,840 --> 02:09:01,880
accordion phenomena when you subscribe

2880
02:09:07,690 --> 02:09:04,850
to Tim Beckley's conspiracy girl it's

2881
02:09:10,540 --> 02:09:07,700
jam-packed with stories special book and

2882
02:09:12,700 --> 02:09:10,550
DVD promotions and the best news it's

2883
02:09:15,760 --> 02:09:12,710
absolutely free sent right to your

2884
02:09:19,540 --> 02:09:15,770
mailbox plus a bonus free email

2885
02:09:21,400 --> 02:09:19,550
newsletter sent out every Friday simply

2886
02:09:26,380 --> 02:09:21,410
send an email with your name and address

2887
02:09:31,930 --> 02:09:26,390
to mister UFO at what TV dotnet that's

2888
02:09:38,409 --> 02:09:31,940
mr. UFO at web TV dotnet find out what

2889
02:09:43,159 --> 02:09:41,299
great news for pure water lovers the big

2890
02:09:45,109 --> 02:09:43,169
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2892
02:09:48,979 --> 02:09:47,129
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2893
02:09:51,169 --> 02:09:48,989
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2899
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2935
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usa.org today how do you spell

2971
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hard-hitting talk-radio g see the

2972
02:12:58,670 --> 02:12:56,270
you've entered another dimension you've

2973
02:13:15,710 --> 02:12:58,680
entered the pair guests

2974
02:13:20,940 --> 02:13:18,660
we returned with mark Pilkington offer

2975
02:13:22,740 --> 02:13:20,950
Mirage Minh and Nick Redferns our

2976
02:13:25,740 --> 02:13:22,750
co-host I'm gene Steinberg you're in the

2977
02:13:29,250 --> 02:13:25,750
para cast so let us look at that other

2978
02:13:31,530 --> 02:13:29,260
than UFOs and such what other kinds of

2979
02:13:34,430 --> 02:13:31,540
paranormal events are perhaps being

2980
02:13:36,510 --> 02:13:34,440
staged I think I would guess that

2981
02:13:38,250 --> 02:13:36,520
possibly quite a few are in the ones I

2982
02:13:41,700 --> 02:13:38,260
talked about on the book there are two

2983
02:13:45,050 --> 02:13:41,710
that are real my real favorite and one

2984
02:13:48,650 --> 02:13:45,060
is from the early 1950s in the

2985
02:13:52,380 --> 02:13:48,660
Philippines when there was a fear that

2986
02:13:54,810 --> 02:13:52,390
the insurgent communist guerrillas in

2987
02:13:57,960 --> 02:13:54,820
the Philippines who called the Huq where

2988
02:14:03,630 --> 02:13:57,970
we're going to stages of a coup and take

2989
02:14:06,930 --> 02:14:03,640
over so so the CIA sand in one of their

2990
02:14:09,270 --> 02:14:06,940
kind of best men a man called Colonel

2991
02:14:12,930 --> 02:14:09,280
Edward Lansdale who was actually

2992
02:14:15,450 --> 02:14:12,940
ironically an advertising executive

2993
02:14:17,910 --> 02:14:15,460
before he got involved in intelligence

2994
02:14:19,410 --> 02:14:17,920
and I think there's a definite parallels

2995
02:14:21,180 --> 02:14:19,420
we drew on between mid work of the

2996
02:14:25,080 --> 02:14:21,190
Mayoress Menon and the advertising

2997
02:14:26,610 --> 02:14:25,090
industry but and and Lance are something

2998
02:14:29,130 --> 02:14:26,620
of a legend he's said to have been the

2999
02:14:31,710 --> 02:14:29,140
inspiration for the character Alden pile

3000
02:14:35,610 --> 02:14:31,720
in Graham Greene's book The Quiet

3001
02:14:38,520 --> 02:14:35,620
American that he was sent into the

3002
02:14:41,960 --> 02:14:38,530
Philippines of initially under cover to

3003
02:14:45,660 --> 02:14:41,970
kind of get a sense of what it was that

3004
02:14:48,030 --> 02:14:45,670
the you know the culture there the

3005
02:14:49,920 --> 02:14:48,040
people there were interested in and what

3006
02:14:52,560 --> 02:14:49,930
they hoped for and of course what they

3007
02:14:54,770 --> 02:14:52,570
were afraid of and the key thing he

3008
02:14:59,010 --> 02:14:54,780
found they're afraid of was a stierson

3009
02:15:01,860 --> 02:14:59,020
vampire called the a slang and and this

3010
02:15:05,820 --> 02:15:01,870
sort of goes back deep into sort of

3011
02:15:07,980 --> 02:15:05,830
Filipino folklore and mythology so what

3012
02:15:12,750 --> 02:15:07,990
they did was they began seeding rumors

3013
02:15:15,540 --> 02:15:12,760
that the Aswang lived in the and the the

3014
02:15:18,579 --> 02:15:15,550
region occupied by the Huq by the

3015
02:15:21,250 --> 02:15:18,589
communist guerrillas and

3016
02:15:23,889 --> 02:15:21,260
bloomers pursue soon spread and and and

3017
02:15:26,919 --> 02:15:23,899
the fear began to spread amongst the

3018
02:15:29,919 --> 02:15:26,929
amongst the villages and and the

3019
02:15:33,189 --> 02:15:29,929
guerrillas then one night the guerillas

3020
02:15:35,619 --> 02:15:33,199
were out on a patrol followed closely by

3021
02:15:39,369 --> 02:15:35,629
Lansdale on the team they plucked the

3022
02:15:41,679 --> 02:15:39,379
last unlucky huck from from the Patrol

3023
02:15:44,739 --> 02:15:41,689
hung him from a tree drained him of

3024
02:15:46,929 --> 02:15:44,749
blood at killing him through punch marks

3025
02:15:51,699 --> 02:15:46,939
in his neck then dropped him back onto

3026
02:15:53,589 --> 02:15:51,709
the trail so that when his his comrades

3027
02:15:55,839 --> 02:15:53,599
came back they found him and their worst

3028
02:15:58,809 --> 02:15:55,849
fears were confirmed that the hut the

3029
02:16:02,199 --> 02:15:58,819
Aswang was well and truly at large in

3030
02:16:04,809 --> 02:16:02,209
the area and actually that they fled

3031
02:16:08,349 --> 02:16:04,819
soon afterwards and lancedale's

3032
02:16:10,479 --> 02:16:08,359
larger mission to get rid of the common

3033
02:16:13,089 --> 02:16:10,489
Menace through this and other operations

3034
02:16:14,770 --> 02:16:13,099
was a success at least for a few years

3035
02:16:17,799 --> 02:16:14,780
so I think you know you can see the

3036
02:16:21,309 --> 02:16:17,809
extent to which and they would you know

3037
02:16:24,129 --> 02:16:21,319
stop at nothing really to get their get

3038
02:16:26,469 --> 02:16:24,139
their work done and and and fight fights

3039
02:16:27,869 --> 02:16:26,479
the communist threat and that this had

3040
02:16:31,209 --> 02:16:27,879
included

3041
02:16:34,629 --> 02:16:31,219
killing people with with fake vampires

3042
02:16:40,929 --> 02:16:34,639
and phobias another one I liked actually

3043
02:16:45,099 --> 02:16:40,939
comes from the the Vietnam War when the

3044
02:16:47,679 --> 02:16:45,109
Army's sixth science battalion developed

3045
02:16:51,399 --> 02:16:47,689
and audio recording called the wandering

3046
02:16:55,540 --> 02:16:51,409
soul which they would roam around the

3047
02:16:57,759 --> 02:16:55,550
forest at night and playing from from so

3048
02:17:00,639 --> 02:16:57,769
special loudspeaker mounted

3049
02:17:04,719 --> 02:17:00,649
backpacks mounted on the backpacks and

3050
02:17:07,149 --> 02:17:04,729
the cassette the sorry the audio tape as

3051
02:17:09,429 --> 02:17:07,159
a magnetic reel-to-reel tape preyed on

3052
02:17:12,219 --> 02:17:09,439
Vietnamese traditions of the unquiet

3053
02:17:14,889 --> 02:17:12,229
dead and contained a conversation

3054
02:17:16,780 --> 02:17:14,899
between a little girl and the wandering

3055
02:17:19,389 --> 02:17:16,790
soul of her dead father who'd been

3056
02:17:21,569 --> 02:17:19,399
killed away from their village while

3057
02:17:24,910 --> 02:17:21,579
fighting the Americans and they used

3058
02:17:27,429 --> 02:17:24,920
traditional Vietnamese funeral music as

3059
02:17:30,370 --> 02:17:27,439
well as lots of eerie reverb effects to

3060
02:17:32,270 --> 02:17:30,380
to kind of transmit this spooky message

3061
02:17:35,690 --> 02:17:32,280
through the nice and it was a

3062
02:17:38,150 --> 02:17:35,700
so successful that a number of American

3063
02:17:40,970 --> 02:17:38,160
soldiers were astute outside as well

3064
02:17:44,660 --> 02:17:40,980
and one one interesting point displayed

3065
02:17:47,000 --> 02:17:44,670
is that the Vietnamese soldiers would

3066
02:17:50,240 --> 02:17:47,010
always shoot in the direction of this

3067
02:17:51,799 --> 02:17:50,250
recording post the insinuation being

3068
02:17:55,009 --> 02:17:51,809
that it you know they were terrified

3069
02:17:56,570 --> 02:17:55,019
that there were ghosts at large and and

3070
02:17:59,140 --> 02:17:56,580
I presume that they could kill them with

3071
02:18:03,830 --> 02:17:59,150
thoughts so that's two you know two very

3072
02:18:06,379 --> 02:18:03,840
clear examples of other supernatural and

3073
02:18:10,070 --> 02:18:06,389
and paranormal kind of themes that have

3074
02:18:12,259 --> 02:18:10,080
in the past being exploited by the

3075
02:18:14,150 --> 02:18:12,269
intelligence and deception specialist

3076
02:18:16,070 --> 02:18:14,160
and I think you know what I'm trying to

3077
02:18:18,560 --> 02:18:16,080
show in the book is that UFOs are just

3078
02:18:22,040 --> 02:18:18,570
another example of this or ld8 one that

3079
02:18:24,230 --> 02:18:22,050
kind of become much more rare kind of

3080
02:18:26,540 --> 02:18:24,240
deeply ingrained into the culture and

3081
02:18:30,950 --> 02:18:26,550
and actually has ended up turning around

3082
02:18:33,080 --> 02:18:30,960
to bite the nourishment on on the rear

3083
02:18:37,000 --> 02:18:33,090
because these ideas are now kind of

3084
02:18:40,040 --> 02:18:37,010
deeply entrenched within the military

3085
02:18:42,500 --> 02:18:40,050
community within the intelligence

3086
02:18:45,200 --> 02:18:42,510
community even with some people in the

3087
02:18:47,419 --> 02:18:45,210
White House and certainly in the popular

3088
02:18:50,990 --> 02:18:47,429
culture and the service and the vendors

3089
02:18:54,410 --> 02:18:51,000
a wider you know what wider Western

3090
02:18:56,570 --> 02:18:54,420
mindset so and I think you know it's

3091
02:18:59,089 --> 02:18:56,580
something that's kind of grown probably

3092
02:19:00,950 --> 02:18:59,099
out of out of their control by the time

3093
02:19:03,320 --> 02:19:00,960
well the one thing courses that you can

3094
02:19:05,240 --> 02:19:03,330
find UFO sightings before there was this

3095
02:19:08,750 --> 02:19:05,250
military industrial and intelligence

3096
02:19:12,530 --> 02:19:08,760
complex you can find sightings that if

3097
02:19:14,480 --> 02:19:12,540
real involves simultaneous radar visual

3098
02:19:16,370 --> 02:19:14,490
sightings sometimes with photographs so

3099
02:19:19,250 --> 02:19:16,380
there appears to be some sort of genuine

3100
02:19:21,259 --> 02:19:19,260
UFO mystery in the midst of all this

3101
02:19:24,620 --> 02:19:21,269
junk mhm yes

3102
02:19:26,600 --> 02:19:24,630
I'd agree and certainly you know the UFO

3103
02:19:29,509 --> 02:19:26,610
mystery certainly predates Kenneth

3104
02:19:32,150 --> 02:19:29,519
Arnold 1947 fighting and you know we

3105
02:19:34,580 --> 02:19:32,160
know about the reports of airships

3106
02:19:37,400 --> 02:19:34,590
sightings in the late 19th century and

3107
02:19:39,860 --> 02:19:37,410
you know and even cases going much

3108
02:19:44,419 --> 02:19:39,870
further back those but you mentioned

3109
02:19:46,090 --> 02:19:44,429
radar cases and and one of the things I

3110
02:19:49,301 --> 02:19:46,100
look at in

3111
02:19:52,270 --> 02:19:49,311
in nourishment is a system called

3112
02:19:54,640 --> 02:19:52,280
palladium which was developed I think

3113
02:19:56,980 --> 02:19:54,650
through that from the late 40s and

3114
02:20:01,750 --> 02:19:56,990
through to the present they are I would

3115
02:20:05,650 --> 02:20:01,760
expect it still used and by the CIA and

3116
02:20:08,740 --> 02:20:05,660
the NSA and that's a by now very

3117
02:20:12,910 --> 02:20:08,750
sophisticated technology for kind of

3118
02:20:16,170 --> 02:20:12,920
projecting false radar paints onto radar

3119
02:20:20,830 --> 02:20:16,180
scopes either on the ground or on

3120
02:20:24,011 --> 02:20:20,840
aircraft and certainly by the 1960s they

3121
02:20:26,560 --> 02:20:24,021
were it was it was developed enough that

3122
02:20:30,131 --> 02:20:26,570
they could actually change the size of

3123
02:20:32,350 --> 02:20:30,141
the radar paint and the speed at which

3124
02:20:35,020 --> 02:20:32,360
it was flying in the direction within

3125
02:20:39,160 --> 02:20:35,030
which it was flying and I learned this

3126
02:20:42,310 --> 02:20:39,170
from reading body of secrets by James

3127
02:20:46,381 --> 02:20:42,320
and so a very interesting history of the

3128
02:20:49,091 --> 02:20:46,391
NSA and he mentioned drone aircraft with

3129
02:20:52,150 --> 02:20:49,101
scalable radar signatures being used

3130
02:20:53,710 --> 02:20:52,160
over Vietnam so I started looking around

3131
02:20:56,230 --> 02:20:53,720
for this and found that this was

3132
02:21:00,670 --> 02:20:56,240
something that has been a phenomenon

3133
02:21:04,540 --> 02:21:00,680
that was first actually reported in 1945

3134
02:21:07,000 --> 02:21:04,550
in the Pacific campaign when Navy ships

3135
02:21:10,270 --> 02:21:07,010
kind of clustered together would start

3136
02:21:12,820 --> 02:21:10,280
picking up strange radar signals which

3137
02:21:15,000 --> 02:21:12,830
they actually ended up attributed to the

3138
02:21:17,591 --> 02:21:15,010
all the sort of different

3139
02:21:19,150 --> 02:21:17,601
electromagnetic and radar and radar

3140
02:21:23,261 --> 02:21:19,160
emissions being kind of pumped out by

3141
02:21:25,360 --> 02:21:23,271
all the ships that created so strange

3142
02:21:27,640 --> 02:21:25,370
and on earth signal and over time the

3143
02:21:32,370 --> 02:21:27,650
system was refined and I really think

3144
02:21:36,761 --> 02:21:32,380
can be seen to be behind a number of

3145
02:21:39,881 --> 02:21:36,771
radar radar cases on the record okay but

3146
02:21:41,950 --> 02:21:39,891
there was one big case here which you

3147
02:21:43,570 --> 02:21:41,960
know is still considered mysterious and

3148
02:21:47,290 --> 02:21:43,580
I'll have to ask more about in our next

3149
02:21:49,930 --> 02:21:47,300
section Washington National Airport 1952

3150
02:21:51,520 --> 02:21:49,940
the summer of 52 and some suggested it

3151
02:21:54,761 --> 02:21:51,530
was temperature inversions and major

3152
02:21:56,730 --> 02:21:54,771
Keyhoe assuming he was not part of the

3153
02:21:59,010 --> 02:21:56,740
government conspiracy main

3154
02:22:01,260 --> 02:21:59,020
big to-do about the fact that this

3155
02:22:03,780 --> 02:22:01,270
couldn't be it had to be something that

3156
02:22:05,580 --> 02:22:03,790
was real had to be evidence of something

3157
02:22:07,590 --> 02:22:05,590
strange something unusual and we'll have

3158
02:22:10,050 --> 02:22:07,600
to explore that in the next section we

3159
02:22:11,969 --> 02:22:10,060
have mark Pilkington the book hardcover

3160
02:22:14,790 --> 02:22:11,979
bhisma roschmann an adventure into

3161
02:22:17,969 --> 02:22:14,800
paranoia espionage psychological warfare

3162
02:22:20,610 --> 02:22:17,979
and UFOs and even if you believe UFOs

3163
02:22:22,770 --> 02:22:20,620
I'm sure neighbors you want to find out

3164
02:22:24,060 --> 02:22:22,780
about the stuff its fake about the stuff

3165
02:22:26,219 --> 02:22:24,070
that's some kind of military

3166
02:22:29,070 --> 02:22:26,229
disinformation operation so you can

3167
02:22:31,680 --> 02:22:29,080
check out the real stuff the co-host is

3168
02:22:41,100 --> 02:22:31,690
Nick Redfern I'm gene Steinberg you're

3169
02:22:43,860 --> 02:22:41,110
in are you ready to order the official

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power cast t-shirt you asked we answered

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3174
02:22:57,480 --> 02:22:54,580
same logo that we have on our community

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forums on the back it says separating

3176
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place your order for the official para

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more thing to talk about and that's more

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store we have hats we have jackets we

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even have a flip Video camcorder

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02:23:41,880 --> 02:23:40,180
store store dot the para cast com if

3192
02:23:43,620 --> 02:23:41,890
you're a regular listener of this

3193
02:23:45,420 --> 02:23:43,630
station then disaster survival is

3194
02:23:47,250 --> 02:23:45,430
vitally important to you and your family

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long-term food storage water filtration

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02:23:51,030 --> 02:23:49,300
emergency food preparation and quality

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survival products are not just talk

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3199
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3250
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Jones did you know that the global elite

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3256
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and silver before in this country and

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it's possible that could even happen

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again so our friends at solutions from

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that's survival see bank.com or give

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them a call at eight seven seven three

3273
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non-hybrid seeds are the ultimate barter

3277
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item this is Alex Jones for survival

3278
02:26:43,400 --> 02:26:40,380
seed bank comm tired of searching for

3279
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great talk radio search no more I just

3280
02:27:20,480 --> 02:26:45,720
want to hear more of it we are the GC

3281
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and radio network we returned with Mark

3282
02:27:25,190 --> 02:27:22,500
Pilkington that's mirages men is the

3283
02:27:27,110 --> 02:27:25,200
book and Nick Redfern is the co-host

3284
02:27:30,261 --> 02:27:27,120
some gene Steinberg you're in the para

3285
02:27:32,511 --> 02:27:30,271
cast so the question on the table 1952

3286
02:27:35,301 --> 02:27:32,521
was that temperature inversions at

3287
02:27:37,610 --> 02:27:35,311
Washington National Airport well I think

3288
02:27:40,310 --> 02:27:37,620
this is really one of the most

3289
02:27:42,591 --> 02:27:40,320
absolutely the most critical year for

3290
02:27:46,220 --> 02:27:42,601
instance on the record because it's the

3291
02:27:49,220 --> 02:27:46,230
one that's really so firstly I think

3292
02:27:51,980 --> 02:27:49,230
through the CIA into the story and just

3293
02:27:54,380 --> 02:27:51,990
Nate was was an example that was the

3294
02:27:56,600 --> 02:27:54,390
greatest fear that anyone could have

3295
02:27:58,990 --> 02:27:56,610
surrounding the UFO phenomenon which is

3296
02:28:03,020 --> 02:27:59,000
that it could you know it could

3297
02:28:05,540 --> 02:28:03,030
infiltrate your airspace right over your

3298
02:28:07,460 --> 02:28:05,550
capital city you know know do be able to

3299
02:28:09,200 --> 02:28:07,470
do a thing about it and this was of

3300
02:28:11,570 --> 02:28:09,210
course something that would have

3301
02:28:14,301 --> 02:28:11,580
sentences pulses and temperatures rising

3302
02:28:17,000 --> 02:28:14,311
all through the through the military and

3303
02:28:19,100 --> 02:28:17,010
intelligence community but actually

3304
02:28:22,130 --> 02:28:19,110
again going back to Leon Davidson he was

3305
02:28:25,430 --> 02:28:22,140
actually the first to suggest the idea

3306
02:28:30,140 --> 02:28:25,440
that the two nights of UFO activity in

3307
02:28:33,090 --> 02:28:30,150
July 1952 over Washington DC were

3308
02:28:36,149 --> 02:28:33,100
actually games being played you

3309
02:28:39,450 --> 02:28:36,159
using an early version of this radar

3310
02:28:41,790 --> 02:28:39,460
spoofing system that would be come known

3311
02:28:45,120 --> 02:28:41,800
as palladium and there's too much

3312
02:28:48,050 --> 02:28:45,130
information and to go into in this

3313
02:28:50,820 --> 02:28:48,060
segment but there are a lot of pieces of

3314
02:28:53,700 --> 02:28:50,830
circumstantial evidence that would point

3315
02:28:57,960 --> 02:28:53,710
to some kind of deliberate deception and

3316
02:29:01,260 --> 02:28:57,970
for one thing the interceptors that were

3317
02:29:05,429 --> 02:29:01,270
sent up to investigate the radar

3318
02:29:08,670 --> 02:29:05,439
sightings had been moved just before to

3319
02:29:11,969 --> 02:29:08,680
an airport further away from Washington

3320
02:29:14,309 --> 02:29:11,979
DC National Airport and Edward without

3321
02:29:16,979 --> 02:29:14,319
their head of Rubik talks about how

3322
02:29:19,500 --> 02:29:16,989
someone from an unnamed agency and we

3323
02:29:22,530 --> 02:29:19,510
can I would guess that that might have

3324
02:29:24,240 --> 02:29:22,540
been the CIA or the NSA had warned him

3325
02:29:27,120 --> 02:29:24,250
that there was going to be a large UFO

3326
02:29:29,309 --> 02:29:27,130
incident over Washington DC or New York

3327
02:29:32,090 --> 02:29:29,319
within a week and it happened as

3328
02:29:36,359 --> 02:29:32,100
described you have Harry Barnes the

3329
02:29:40,769 --> 02:29:36,369
radar operator discussing complaining

3330
02:29:42,859 --> 02:29:40,779
that the objects on his radar seem to be

3331
02:29:45,599 --> 02:29:42,869
listening in on his conversations and

3332
02:29:48,149 --> 02:29:45,609
particularly with the interceptors sent

3333
02:29:50,340 --> 02:29:48,159
up to track the objects and seem to

3334
02:29:52,800 --> 02:29:50,350
respond to any information he gave them

3335
02:29:55,050 --> 02:29:52,810
and when the aircraft went up to find

3336
02:29:57,960 --> 02:29:55,060
them the radars of the radio objects

3337
02:30:00,300 --> 02:29:57,970
blitz out and then returned as soon as

3338
02:30:02,149 --> 02:30:00,310
the aircraft had returned to base you

3339
02:30:06,990 --> 02:30:02,159
have perhaps one of the most interesting

3340
02:30:10,290 --> 02:30:07,000
pieces of evidence is that James Sanford

3341
02:30:13,170 --> 02:30:10,300
so John Sanford who is the intelligent

3342
02:30:15,599 --> 02:30:13,180
air force intelligence general who

3343
02:30:18,300 --> 02:30:15,609
basically supervised the kind of press

3344
02:30:20,670 --> 02:30:18,310
relations and public relations after the

3345
02:30:24,210 --> 02:30:20,680
incident and in fact they had the

3346
02:30:27,030 --> 02:30:24,220
largest press conference in the Air

3347
02:30:29,639 --> 02:30:27,040
Force's histories and and the largest

3348
02:30:32,969 --> 02:30:29,649
military conference in world war two

3349
02:30:35,729 --> 02:30:32,979
around the subject he would go on to

3350
02:30:37,859 --> 02:30:35,739
become the second ever head of the

3351
02:30:40,620 --> 02:30:37,869
National Security Agency just four years

3352
02:30:42,899 --> 02:30:40,630
after this incident which was and the

3353
02:30:43,780 --> 02:30:42,909
and National Security Agency itself was

3354
02:30:46,380 --> 02:30:43,790
with

3355
02:30:49,210 --> 02:30:46,390
just a few months after the Washington

3356
02:30:51,761 --> 02:30:49,220
overflight Senate's medical incidence I

3357
02:30:54,420 --> 02:30:51,771
don't know that that the Palladium

3358
02:30:58,900 --> 02:30:54,430
system this radar spoofing system was

3359
02:31:02,950 --> 02:30:58,910
primarily or was largely used by the NSA

3360
02:31:06,400 --> 02:31:02,960
from the late fifties on so it's a

3361
02:31:07,990 --> 02:31:06,410
certainly there are various other piece

3362
02:31:10,270 --> 02:31:08,000
tidbits of information that would

3363
02:31:12,370 --> 02:31:10,280
suggest something very fishy was going

3364
02:31:14,770 --> 02:31:12,380
on there and and the question of course

3365
02:31:19,810 --> 02:31:14,780
is motivation and that's something we

3366
02:31:21,370 --> 02:31:19,820
can't do a lot of a lot of expense to go

3367
02:31:23,650 --> 02:31:21,380
through all this nonsense

3368
02:31:26,320 --> 02:31:23,660
just to fake UFO cases because of

3369
02:31:29,770 --> 02:31:26,330
anything that's being used as a lynchpin

3370
02:31:31,870 --> 02:31:29,780
to advance the case for UFO reality that

3371
02:31:34,690 --> 02:31:31,880
in other cases involving simultaneous

3372
02:31:37,210 --> 02:31:34,700
radar and visual sightings and they're

3373
02:31:40,360 --> 02:31:37,220
all gonna be blamed on palladium on this

3374
02:31:42,100 --> 02:31:40,370
device to fake radar images you know

3375
02:31:47,230 --> 02:31:42,110
it's gets to be a little bit of a

3376
02:31:51,370 --> 02:31:47,240
stretch don't you think and I think it's

3377
02:31:53,380 --> 02:31:51,380
the timing of the this is why I think

3378
02:31:55,060 --> 02:31:53,390
it's important to reiterate that I don't

3379
02:31:57,520 --> 02:31:55,070
believe there's a kind of continuous

3380
02:31:59,560 --> 02:31:57,530
program to generate UFO stories I think

3381
02:32:02,290 --> 02:31:59,570
it's just something that that you know

3382
02:32:05,650 --> 02:32:02,300
that steps in every now and again when

3383
02:32:08,261 --> 02:32:05,660
it's when it's expedient to to do so but

3384
02:32:11,380 --> 02:32:08,271
if you look at the timing it's the of

3385
02:32:14,500 --> 02:32:11,390
the Washington overflight and I really

3386
02:32:16,840 --> 02:32:14,510
think it seems to follow a pattern of

3387
02:32:19,000 --> 02:32:16,850
promotion of the idea that flying

3388
02:32:21,900 --> 02:32:19,010
sources as they were at the time were

3389
02:32:25,690 --> 02:32:21,910
from outer space and if you look at the

3390
02:32:28,690 --> 02:32:25,700
huge Life magazine article that had come

3391
02:32:31,600 --> 02:32:28,700
out that previous April so just a few

3392
02:32:34,511 --> 02:32:31,610
months before that was allegedly came

3393
02:32:37,270 --> 02:32:34,521
from the you know mouth of senior source

3394
02:32:39,100 --> 02:32:37,280
figures themselves that flying saucers

3395
02:32:41,410 --> 02:32:39,110
were indeed from outer space which was a

3396
02:32:43,810 --> 02:32:41,420
real about-turn for the Air Force who'd

3397
02:32:46,180 --> 02:32:43,820
spent a lot of time trying to quash this

3398
02:32:48,460 --> 02:32:46,190
notion and you and you know we can

3399
02:32:51,790 --> 02:32:48,470
speculate about why this might have been

3400
02:32:55,810 --> 02:32:51,800
but I think it's interesting to note

3401
02:32:57,330 --> 02:32:55,820
that around this time system in 1952 I

3402
02:33:00,000 --> 02:32:57,340
was really the

3403
02:33:02,730 --> 02:33:00,010
very first dramatic escalation I've

3404
02:33:06,060 --> 02:33:02,740
called cold war attentions those who you

3405
02:33:08,940 --> 02:33:06,070
know the Korean War was was was running

3406
02:33:11,460 --> 02:33:08,950
and there were real concerns that

3407
02:33:13,620 --> 02:33:11,470
certainly and in the British

3408
02:33:15,360 --> 02:33:13,630
intelligence establishment that this

3409
02:33:18,270 --> 02:33:15,370
could become a flashpoint that would

3410
02:33:20,849 --> 02:33:18,280
would result in the dropping of more

3411
02:33:23,820 --> 02:33:20,859
atomic bomb so you know this was a very

3412
02:33:25,710 --> 02:33:23,830
very tense time and I don't know if this

3413
02:33:28,860 --> 02:33:25,720
is the Washington oversee it may have

3414
02:33:31,800 --> 02:33:28,870
been intended to just demonstrate how

3415
02:33:36,260 --> 02:33:31,810
easily this kind of you know this kind

3416
02:33:39,120 --> 02:33:36,270
of false false flag operation could be

3417
02:33:41,130 --> 02:33:39,130
conducted over over American airspace or

3418
02:33:44,760 --> 02:33:41,140
it could have been deliberately designed

3419
02:33:47,400 --> 02:33:44,770
to draw the attention of the CIA and get

3420
02:33:50,130 --> 02:33:47,410
them involved in UFO investigations

3421
02:33:52,740 --> 02:33:50,140
which to some extent that it succeeded

3422
02:33:55,290 --> 02:33:52,750
in doing so we can only speculate but I

3423
02:33:58,820 --> 02:33:55,300
think and what we see is a real as a so

3424
02:34:03,139 --> 02:33:58,830
two-tier system for both promoting and

3425
02:34:07,800 --> 02:34:03,149
and dissuading and entered and

3426
02:34:09,540 --> 02:34:07,810
denigrating the UFO story so I think and

3427
02:34:11,520 --> 02:34:09,550
the side I would suggest is also

3428
02:34:14,790 --> 02:34:11,530
continue the process that continues

3429
02:34:17,429 --> 02:34:14,800
where you have on one level the people

3430
02:34:20,340 --> 02:34:17,439
who are so already deeply immersed and

3431
02:34:22,650 --> 02:34:20,350
ingrained in the UFO culture who you

3432
02:34:25,679 --> 02:34:22,660
know you can't there's a as I'm sure

3433
02:34:27,780 --> 02:34:25,689
we're all the way you can't you can't

3434
02:34:29,880 --> 02:34:27,790
convince people who want to believe in

3435
02:34:33,179 --> 02:34:29,890
something strongly enough that their

3436
02:34:35,429 --> 02:34:33,189
beliefs are mistaken or misguided so I

3437
02:34:38,639 --> 02:34:35,439
think those the ones I just will keep

3438
02:34:40,440 --> 02:34:38,649
encouraging and feeding more UFO

3439
02:34:42,210 --> 02:34:40,450
information at the same time there's

3440
02:34:44,849 --> 02:34:42,220
always obviously been an attempt to

3441
02:34:47,070 --> 02:34:44,859
dissuade other people from getting

3442
02:34:50,099 --> 02:34:47,080
involved in the UFO subject particularly

3443
02:34:52,770 --> 02:34:50,109
so people in the who already involved

3444
02:34:54,750 --> 02:34:52,780
with sensitive technologies or all the

3445
02:34:57,690 --> 02:34:54,760
intelligence or within the intelligence

3446
02:34:59,250 --> 02:34:57,700
or military sphere so I know it might

3447
02:35:01,679 --> 02:34:59,260
that would be my suggestion that there

3448
02:35:03,929 --> 02:35:01,689
is this two-tier operation that works

3449
02:35:05,140 --> 02:35:03,939
well unfortunately in the next minute we

3450
02:35:07,030 --> 02:35:05,150
can't prove it one way

3451
02:35:09,551 --> 02:35:07,040
the other but certainly there's a

3452
02:35:11,770 --> 02:35:09,561
compelling story to be voiced there and

3453
02:35:14,261 --> 02:35:11,780
expressed the book is called Mirage men

3454
02:35:17,011 --> 02:35:14,271
by Mark Pilkington the subtitle and

3455
02:35:19,930 --> 02:35:17,021
adventure into paranoia espionage

3456
02:35:23,320 --> 02:35:19,940
psychological warfare and UFOs whether

3457
02:35:25,060 --> 02:35:23,330
or not you believe in UFOs certainly

3458
02:35:27,400 --> 02:35:25,070
there's a lot of disinformation around

3459
02:35:31,291 --> 02:35:27,410
mark is there anyplace a site that we

3460
02:35:37,541 --> 02:35:34,930
blog specifically to Jessica it's a

3461
02:35:41,410 --> 02:35:37,551
issues and news related to nourish man

3462
02:35:44,051 --> 02:35:41,420
that's mirages men dot wordpress.com and

3463
02:35:45,190 --> 02:35:44,061
I've been that's quite a sights on

3464
02:35:47,591 --> 02:35:45,200
myself there's a lot of really

3465
02:35:50,410 --> 02:35:47,601
interesting information up there and I

3466
02:35:52,450 --> 02:35:50,420
would my plan is to actually start

3467
02:35:54,761 --> 02:35:52,460
putting up some of the material that I

3468
02:35:56,440 --> 02:35:54,771
ended up exercising from the books uh

3469
02:35:58,480 --> 02:35:56,450
various reasons mainly for reasons of

3470
02:36:00,751 --> 02:35:58,490
life ended up cutting about forty

3471
02:36:02,650 --> 02:36:00,761
thousand words an interesting material

3472
02:36:03,910 --> 02:36:02,660
unfortunately we have to cut this short

3473
02:36:05,921 --> 02:36:03,920
because we're just about to have time

3474
02:36:08,440 --> 02:36:05,931
Nick Redfern where do we find more of

3475
02:36:10,900 --> 02:36:08,450
your stuff Nick Redfern calm and easy

3476
02:36:13,240 --> 02:36:10,910
one to remember easy to remember I'm

3477
02:36:15,400 --> 02:36:13,250
Jean Steinberg this is the para Casa

3478
02:36:17,801 --> 02:36:15,410
special thank you to our co-hosts Nick

3479
02:36:19,930 --> 02:36:17,811
Redfern and author Mark Pilkington for

3480
02:36:22,720 --> 02:36:19,940
joining us this week on the para cast

3481
02:36:33,791 --> 02:36:22,730
thanks doc thank you Nick thanks their

3482
02:36:39,761 --> 02:36:33,801
contributions about the never get here

3483
02:36:42,640 --> 02:36:39,771
and a reminder event Nick Redfern

3484
02:36:44,560 --> 02:36:42,650
returns next week as a guest with Chris

3485
02:36:47,170 --> 02:36:44,570
O'Brien as the co-host Nick will be

3486
02:36:55,469 --> 02:36:47,180
talking about his new book final events

3487
02:36:59,290 --> 02:36:57,790
the pair cast is a copyrighted

3488
02:37:01,990 --> 02:36:59,300
presentation of making the impossible

3489
02:37:06,110 --> 02:37:02,000
incorporated tune in next week for a new

3490
02:37:23,980 --> 02:37:06,120
adventure in the para cast